The Senedd met by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Good afternoon and welcome.

Before we start formally, I'm sure we've all seen on the news today that Seth Burke, one of our newly elected youth parliamentarians, spent many weeks in hospital over Christmas with COVID. We're glad to know that Seth is now home and all of us, as Senedd Members, I'm sure are wishing Seth a very speedy recovery and hope very much that he, along with his fellow Senedd Members of the Youth Parliament, will be able to attend the first sitting of the new Youth Parliament when it meets virtually in mid February.

So, I wish Seth and everyone else well.
Before we move to the first item, I do need to set out a few points. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's meeting, and these are set out on your agenda.

1. Questions to the Minister for Social Justice

The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Social Justice, and the first question is from Joel James.

Anti-slavery Legislation

Joel James MS: 1. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of anti-slavery legislation that affects Wales? OQ57402

Hannah Blythyn AC: The Modern Slavery Act 2015 has improved the focus on identifying and tackling the risk of modern slavery, supporting survivors and bringing perpetrators to justice. We are working with the Home Office and partners in Wales to review the modern slavery strategy and better understand the impact of the Act.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, and, as you know, the Modern Slavery Act UK specifies that companies with a turnover of £36 million or more need to declare the measures that they're taking to stop slavery in their supply chains. More recent developments by the UK Government in 2020 have, in what was a world first, extended this requirement to all public bodies and local authorities in England and Wales that also have budgets of over £36 million.
As the Deputy Minister will know, Wales has comparatively few private companies that actually meet the £36 million threshold, and, as one of the lead Ministers for anti-slavery in Wales, I believe it's your responsibility to make the case to the UK Government for this threshold to be changed to incorporate more Welsh businesses. In the first instance, can the Deputy Minister explain what specific attempts this Government has made to have this £36 million threshold changed to be more applicable to Welsh businesses? And, secondly, can the Deputy Minister explain what contribution she and the Minister have made personally, as leads on anti-slavery, to justify this role within their ministerial portfolios? Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank the Member for his question and his interest in this issue? I'm sure Members across the Senedd floor can agree this is something that there should be consensus and cross-party work on given the very nature of the subject matter and the challenges that we face. And whilst modern slavery is a reserved matter under the Government of Wales Act 2006, we have, through the course of this Act coming into place, worked both with the UK Government very closely and with partners in Wales. We are part of the Wales anti-slavery leadership group and we also work closely—. We were part of the review of the strategy that it's currently undertaking. I will certainly take away some of the points that the Member raised today in terms of that review and the ongoing conversations we are having with UK Government counterparts.
And I should perhaps at this point just refer to some of the things that we have already done in Wales, and that's our code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains and with our work around modern slavery and fair work and social partnership, we're also looking at a review and a refresh of that strategy to see how we can strengthen it further in the future.

Joyce Watson AC: We should recognise, of course, that Wales has led the way in the UK on tackling modern slavery. We were the first country in the UK to appoint an anti-trafficking lead when Carl Sargeant was Minister, and that role has been supported by groups like Bawso and the Welsh Refugee Council, which bring a victim-focused expertise. And now we also have Jeff Cuthbert spearheading the police and crime commissioner response. So, Wales has a good story to tell.As you've mentioned, Minister, we have the code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains, and that is also key. But we are also subject to UK legislation. I have serious concerns about the UK's Nationality and Borders Bill, which leading charities have condemned as overtly racist and which surely threatens our status as a nation of sanctuary with its punitive time limits for trafficking victims and others to bring forward their cases. So, is the Welsh Government assessing the Bill to see how Wales might close the victim support gaps that it will inevitably open?

The Minister to respond.

The Deputy Minister to respond. Yes, carry on, Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank the Member again for her work in this area—the work of the cross-party Senedd group on human trafficking? I know Welsh Government officials have recently met with the group to see how we can work collaboratively again across the Senedd, and across Government, and with partners across Wales. And the Member, Joyce Watson, rightly refers to the work of the PCC Jeff Cuthbert now, as the designated lead in this area and how we actually work together. And the Member highlights concerns around the Nationality and Borders Bill, and you know that both my colleagues the Minister for Social Justice and the Counsel General issued a written statement in December, shortly before the recess, making clear the Welsh Government's very strong concerns in this area, and the way in which it might undermine some of the work we are doing around the nation of sanctuary, not to mention around modern slavery. We are concerned that the Bill conflates modern slavery with immigration issues and risks creating additional barriers to the identification and provision of support to modern slavery victims. We are calling very strongly on the UK Government to change course on this, and we'll continue to do what we can do within Wales, implementing the code of practice and working with those bodies that aren't devolved as well, and with our police and crime commissioner colleagues and with local authorities, to make sure that we do tackle these pernicious practices in Wales.

Charities and the Voluntary Sector

Peter Fox AS: 2. How is the Welsh Government supporting charities and the voluntary sector during the COVID-19 pandemic? OQ57420

Jane Hutt AC: We have provided over £40 million in additional funding to voluntary sector organisations since the start of the pandemic. And the Welsh Government also provides core funding for the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and county voluntary councils to enable them to support local voluntary organisations and volunteering groups across Wales.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister, for your response. Charities and the wider voluntary sector have played a vital role in supporting our communities throughout the pandemic. And I would like to place on record my appreciation of the fantastic army of volunteers across Wales who have gone above and beyond to help us through these difficult times. However, the sector has experienced significant financial pressures as a result of the pandemic, with the WCVA recently estimating that voluntary organisations have lost around £600 million in income, whilst around a quarter of small charities have no reserves, yet demand for these services has increased by around 67 per cent since April 2021. Now, I acknowledge the support previously provided by the Welsh Government to help plug some of these financial shortfalls, as well as the additional £7 million for the next three years that was recently announced. But it's clear that further support is needed to help the sector recover whilst fundraising activities are limited by the current public health restrictions and demand for services is so high. Minister, what additional support is the Government looking to provide to the voluntary sector over the next year to ensure that organisations can continue to support our communities? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: I'd like to thank the Member for this very important question, because we've seen, as you said, Peter Fox, throughout the pandemic that strong and independent voluntary sector critical to the well-being of Wales and our communities, and that culture of volunteering proving itself with so many coming forward to support people, neighbours and communities. So, just to confirm, last year, we did launch the third phase of the third sector resilience fund, with over £4 million to help viable voluntary sector organisations survive—and that's the key point of your questions—and be sustained through the pandemic and be resilient. And this has since been increased from £4 million to £7.2 million. Of course, that is crucial to ensuring that we also have an extra £1 million for our volunteering Wales grant, to support those who are coming forward in this way, but working very closely with the third sector partnership council in terms of the way forward and for the recovery and the resilience of the third sector. We are supporting the third sector in every way we can—nationally, regionally and locally.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Gweinidog, as chair of the cross-party group on dementia, I've heard some very difficult accounts from individuals within the voluntary sector who are providing support to people living with dementia and other debilitating conditions, and a regular complaint that they have is that they don't feel like a valued colleague and do not receive effective communication from local authorities and other statutory services. Volunteers for charities such as the Alzheimer's Society are expected to pick up the pieces with very limited information and support, and a real concern that they have is that that's leading people to fall between the cracks, and also leading to volunteers to walk away because they don't get the support that they need. I understand, Minister, that this is an issue that probably cuts across a number of different portfolios, but will the Minister discuss with her fellow Ministers, and with local authorities and statutory services, how best to support the services provided by charities, provided by volunteers, during this very challenging period? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Rhys ab Owen. That is a crucial part of the way we work with the voluntary sector. In fact, we pioneered the voluntary sector partnership scheme, which actually means that all sectors, and that includes the health and social care sector, meet with Ministers, meet with the health and social services Ministers, to look at those specific issues, because it is cross-government, as you say, in terms of those needs, but particularly during the pandemic, reaching out, particularly in relation to dementia services, to those who are working in the sector. So, my officials are working with health officials to review the strategic direction for the third sector support and investment in relation to those charities that you identified today. And that's, of course, nationally, but, locally, your voluntary councils—all those across Wales—have a key part to play in terms of supporting local providers as well.

Buffy Williams MS: I declare an interest here as I still sit on the board of trustees at Canolfan Pentre. The support charities and the voluntary sector provide to the most vulnerable in our communities is invaluable, and throughout the pandemic alleviated an immense amount of pressure for local authorities. We wouldn't be able to provide this support without the all-important funding. Unfortunately, it's obtaining funding that many of our charities across Wales find very difficult. I think we sometimes forget that these charities are predominantly run by retired people or parents who cannot work full time due to childcare responsibilities, with little or no experience of having to complete funding applications. We must do more to break down this barrier to ensure more people are able to receive the support they need. For this reason, will the Minister work with county voluntary councils, and other funding bodies, to ensure applications for grant funding are more user friendly?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Buffy Williams. And can I pay tribute to all of those volunteers in your community, and across the whole of Wales, who played such an important role during the pandemic, but have always done as the lifeblood of our communities?
So, just to reassure you, officials are working with funders, including the Wales funders forum, which is an important forum to bring all the funders together, to ensure that these issues are being raised in terms of accessibility to grant schemes. The county voluntary councils are often grant managers, and you will be liaising, I'm sure, with yours. And I will be asking my officials to particularly look at how application processes can be more user friendly, and very much proportionate in terms of the situations that voluntary sector organisations are in, to make sure that they can access that funding.And it's not just accessing Government funding; lottery funding has been critical, hasn't it, as well, and making sure that we can—. And local authorities playing their part as well has been crucial throughout the pandemic, and this is part of the way in which we're looking at the financial viability of the third sector, with sustainable funding being a key pillar of that infrastructure.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I was re-elected as chair of the cross-party group on disability at its first meeting this Senedd term on 17 December. The online meeting included a presentation by the chief executive of Disability Wales on the 'Locked out: liberating disabled people’s lives and rights in Wales beyond COVID-19' report, which originated from discussions at the Welsh Government's disability equality forum, chaired by you. This found that 68 per cent of deaths from COVID-19 in Wales were among disabled people and stated that there is nothing inevitable about this statistic, and this report illustrates how social factors, including discrimination, poor housing, poverty, employment status, institutionalisation, lack of personal protective equipment, poor and patchy services, inaccessible and confusing public information, and personal circumstances, significantly contributed to this figure during the pandemic.
The report also found that disabled people did not get all the medical help they needed, had less access to public services and social support, had less access to public spaces and public life, struggled to live independently and did not always have their human rights fully respected. It also reaffirmed the fundamental right of disabled people to be fully involved in decisions about their own lives and the need for reasonable adjustments to be made to make sure that everyone is able to use places and services. What specific action are you taking, as the Welsh Government Minister responsible for equality and human rights, accordingly?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood, for that question. I was in attendance at the cross-party group most recently—I have attended more than one—which you chair, and it was very good to see you back in that position. Can I just confirm that over the time of the pandemic it has been vital for me to engage, as I chair the disability equality forum? In fact, I chaired eight disability equality forums, where we had those discussions about the impact of the pandemic, concerns and developments relating to disabled people in Wales, and also making sure that all those views were shared and the experiences shared across the Welsh Government—the chief medical officer attending those meetings, and other Ministers as well.
I think, in light of the testimonies that came from the disability equality forum and data that was emerging, we commissioned forum members to examine the impact that the COVID-19 pandemic was having on disabled people, and that resulted in the report you've just mentioned, 'Locked out: liberating disabled people’s lives and rights in Wales beyond COVID-19', and that was co-produced by Professor Debbie Foster of the Cardiff Business School and the steering group, who have worked together to ensure that we have a disability taskforce that's been established—I attended and co-chaired the first inaugural meeting in November—and, indeed, taking this forward, in terms of ensuring that the findings of the 'Locked out' report can be delivered. Now, I just want to finally, quickly, say that this is all in the context of developing actions within the principles of the social model of disability, which this Senedd has also endorsed, alongside the Welsh Government.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, as Professor Debbie Foster told the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee this morning, which I was chairing, to drive the change required will need change to the way we work across the public sector in Wales, with embracement of true co-production not political soundbites—I'm not referring to you here, but soundbites that often misunderstand and misuse the term.
And in this context, and, again, noting your responsibility for equality and human rights, what specific actions are you taking following the findings of the scoping study for the alignment and development of autism and neurodevelopmental services in September 2019, commissioned by the Welsh Government, which has recently been brought to my attention and which highlights the gap between demand and capacity for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder services in Wales? The report recommends that further work to inform the development services for ADHD should be undertaken, and that the Welsh Government should review the funding for services. Estimates suggest that untreated ADHD could cost the UK, including Wales, billions each year, with the symptoms affecting individuals throughout their lives. And ADHD has links to school exclusion, unemployment, substance misuse and criminality, with an estimated 25 per cent of prisoners having ADHD. Such data highlights the importance of ensuring appropriate services are in place for people with ADHD to ensure optimal outcomes for both the individual and wider society, and therefore social justice. I look forward to hearing your response accordingly.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much for that follow-up question, and just to say that I want to ensure that the delivery of this report through our disability rights taskforce is actually co-produced. We commissioned it, it's co-chaired, and we need to deliver that in terms of the social model of disability, and also undertaking this—. And you've mentioned the human rights issues. This is, of course, part of the human rights framework in terms of what we're seeking to do to incorporate the UN convention on the rights of disabled people into Welsh law. Now, you have raised another key point in terms of moving forward, which is very much a cross-Government response. I will also seek an update on the progress, particularly in relation to ADHD, from my colleagues in the Welsh Government.

Mark Isherwood AC: Okay, thank you. Moving to your overarching responsibility for fuel poverty finally, last month, on Fuel Poverty Awareness Day, the Welsh Government published its cold weather resilience plan for people at risk of living in a cold home, something I've been calling for as chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency, as you know. Although fuel poverty coalition members welcomed the plan, and most of them fed into its development, how do you respond to their concern and feedback that they would like to see strengthened detail on how the Welsh Government will work with the health sector to achieve the plan's aims and agree with what the health sector can do to support it, and that the plan would benefit from the inclusion of an additional objective for specific actions to help support critical moments in healthcare, like discharge from hospital, or enhancing the hospital to a healthier home service, help train healthcare professionals to identify fuel poverty and those at risk of cold weather and raise awareness of available support and help establish referral networks between health actors and advice partners, and that, beyond emergency assistance payments under the discretionary assistance fund for oil and liquid petroleum gas, there's little or no detail in the plan on support for rural communities? Again, I look forward to your response accordingly.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for that follow-up question. You will know that I did publish the cold weather resilience plan on 3 December and it does include 12 actions designed to improve the cold weather resilience of lower income households: financial help, for example, to repair boilers for lower income households and to buy domestic fuel for off-grid and rural homes—you mentioned rural communities—through the discretionary assistance fund—they're included in the plan—and also supporting joint working with energy suppliers to ensure that we are targeting support on households that are struggling to pay their energy bills; improved referrals into schemes such as the Warm Homes programme; the energy company obligation scheme; but also, clearly, as you have identified, in terms of health and well-being services as well.

Questions now from Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price, yesterday asked the First Minister about what actions the Welsh Government are taking in the light of the current and mounting cost-of-living crisis, described as nothing less than catastrophic by the Resolution Foundation, which is hitting too many of Wales's families, with devastating consequences. As well as the measures already in place, which are unfortunately and frustratingly limited by the control of the callous and uncaring Conservatives in power in Westminster over welfare and other means of tackling poverty, Plaid Cymru would like to see a new focus on what can be done to prevent even more people being plunged into even deeper poverty, with all the negative and damaging outcomes that has on our society.
Later today, we will debate the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report on debt, and energy costs are shown in the report to be contributing massively to an ever increasing and unsustainable level of debt for too many Welsh households. Although welcome, you have said yourself, and the committee agrees, that the extra one-off payments you were able to make through the winter fuel support scheme are no way near enough and cannot make up for the loss of the £20 universal credit uplift, for example, so cruelly taken away from Welsh families in need by the UK Government. I'd like to ask for an updateon the uptake of the support scheme payments and ask how the Welsh Government is monitoring the effectiveness of awareness-raising initiatives to ensure that those who really need this support are accessing it.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. I'm really pleased that you've raised this issue. It came up very strongly yesterday, as you said, with questions from Adam Price to the First Minister, but also questions from across the—certainly from Labour Members as well as Plaid Cymru Members in terms of the catastrophic cost-of-living crisis that people are facing. What is very clear is that we need to call on the UK Government to play their part in tackling this. Now, I would like to say that we have had a good take-up of our winter support fuel payment scheme. By the end of December, we had data from 20 of 22 local authorities showing over 100,000 applications have been received by local authorities. Now, what's very clear is that this needs to be promoted, and we're using all the local authorities and all our winter fuel support scheme partners to make sure that the take-up is reached.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you. The same report, the report of the social justice and equalities committee, recommends that the Welsh Government sets out how it will accelerate its Warm Homes programme as a way of tackling fuel poverty, because accelerate it must given the current and future cost-of-living storm, which has been deepened by the skyrocketing fuel prices, which we know will rise even further come the spring and will be with us for many years ahead, as the head of Centrica has warned today. Four of Wales's counties are already in the top 10 areas across the United Kingdom hardest hit by rising fuel prices. Can the Minister tell us if the Government will act on those recommendations with new urgency, given the circumstances? How is the Welsh Government currently identifying and targeting fuel-poor households? The report of the Auditor General for Wales raised concerns that, while the Nest scheme's initial purpose was to tackle fuel poverty, the evolution of the scheme meant that some funds were being prioritised to people who may not have been experiencing fuel poverty. National Energy Action has also raised the issue about energy suppliers needing to better identify financially vulnerable customers in order to provide support. So, how is the Welsh Government assisting and ensuring energy suppliers are identifying and supporting financially vulnerable customers and those living in fuel poverty? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Sioned Williams, for that really important follow-up question, and, of course, it does apply to the importance of our Warm Homes programme, and since its inception in 2009-10 to the end of March of this year, more than £394 million has been invested to improve home energy efficiency through the programme in Wales, and that's benefited more than 67,100 homes, and, within this, more than 160,000 households receiving free and impartial advice, which has been a crucial part of it, to improve domestic energy efficiency and reduce fuel bills.
But we now, as you know, are consulting on the next phase of the Warm Homes programme. That was published on 22 December, and, importantly, of course, the draft budget, published in December, with a statement by the finance Minister yesterday, does include that increase of capital funding of £30 million, from £27 million in the last financial year, for energy efficiency measures for lower income households. It is important that we look to what has been achieved as well as ensuring that, as a result of experience and lessons learnt, we move forward and we get the full results of the consultation from the next phase of the programme.
I think that very much is linked to the fuel poverty plan, of course, with our advisory group, and I've already been mentioning the cold weather resilience plan, but I would also like to just say that it is important that we tackle this, recognising that the UK Government has got its part to play in this in terms of the cost-of-living catastrophe that we have in terms of fuel poverty. I and the Minister for Climate Change have written to Kwasi Kwarteng this week, expressing our deep concerns about the increasing domestic energy prices, the impact they're having on households in Wales, particularly concerned about lower income households, and the fact that we know those increases have come into effect and the fact that more households in Wales are going to be faced with poverty because of their policies. I'm sure that you will be discussing this later on in response to the report, and indeed other questions.

The Winter Fuel Support Scheme

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 3. What assessment has the Minister made of the social justice impacts of the Welsh Government winter fuel support scheme? OQ57406

Jane Hutt AC: Households are experiencing a cost-of-living crisis due to spiralling energy prices and cuts to welfare support. Councils are supporting take-up of the Welsh Government's winter fuel support scheme amongst eligible households to help them keep warm this winter, and will continue to promote the scheme over the coming weeks.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, as you say, many of our constituents throughout the whole of Wales are now really experiencing a day-to-day cost-of-living crisis. They're making choices—genuinely—between heating and eating, either feeding themselves or feeding the prepayment meters. We've had COVID-19 and post-Brexit impacts on supply chains; we've had shipping delays; factories in lockdown or slowdown globally; staff absences affecting things particularly like raw materials; food prices have risen due to those supply chain disruptions and we've had increased HGV driver wages after thousands left the UK for their home countries in the EU. And all of this, Minister, is before the soaring energy prices and the national insurance hike that comes into force in April. The energy bills are expected to soar as the Government's price cap is revised in February and implemented in April, and that's not to even mention the cruel universal credit cut. Yet, for some reason, the Prime Minister and UK Chancellor seem impotent or unaware, their attentions seemingly distracted by other more pressing matters such as clinging on to the keys of No. 10 at all costs. So, this fuel poverty intervention by Welsh Government is really welcome, particularly given that real, immediate cost-of-living crisis. How can we ensure, Minister, that as many eligible people as possible are able to access this fund and get hold of this welcome help?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Huw Irranca-Davies, and as you say, spiralling energy prices are leading this cost-of-living crisis. If you look back to what the Resolution Foundation said in response to the UK Government's autumn budget, they noted at that point, even if we also take into account the impact of the faster than average earnings increase to national living wage, the poorest fifth of households will still be an average of £280 a year worse off overall, and we know that those figures now have increased in terms of the adverse impact.
I think it's important just in terms of all of what's coming together, this Senedd and the questions this afternoon and yesterday are focusing on this cost-of-living crisis. We are calling on the UK Government—I've mentioned the joint letter with the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James—to take action now alongside us and the action we're taking to support low-income households to secure affordable energy. So, we are pressing all the buttons in terms of promoting our winter support scheme. It is available to all of those lower income households who are on benefits for working-age households.
I've already mentioned in response to Sioned Williams that we've got a promising 100,000 applications already. We estimate that 350,000 households will be available. The Welsh Local Government Association have shown very strong support in terms of take-up, but also we have our income maximisation campaign; digital marketing of our winter fuel support scheme; and also a really useful toolkit of resources issued to all our partners, including the anti-poverty coalition, National Energy Action and, of course, Citizens Advice as well.
And if I could just say finally in response, we're under no illusion that the £100 will go far enough in compensating households who lost out so much last year because of the harsh decisions when the £20 per week universal credit and working tax credit uplift payment—. If we can get that £100 out, and every Member of the Senedd can help us with that in terms of promoting this Welsh Government scheme.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, many of our most hard-pressed families will face major financial challenges over the next few years, and not just in the cost of fuel. As your Government continues to press ahead with its carbon-neutral target, it is those least able to afford a change in their heating system and other areas of their lifestyles that will bear the brunt of meeting these climate targets. What assessment have you made of the impact on inequalities that such a policy will surely drive? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: This is an area where, of course, the UK Government has to also take responsibility. Thank you for the question; it is important. We are in a situation where people are having to choose between heating and eating, and that's coming through from so much powerful evidence. But it is also, and my colleagues, I'm sure, will want to share this with you—. I will share the letter that we have written to the Minister in the UK Government to address all of these issues, because they are exacerbating the situation in relation to energy costs. For example, one of the points that is crucial, and it relates to your point, is that we have deep concern about the increase in domestic energy prices, but also we have felt for a long time as a Welsh Government—we’ve had a long-held view—that environmental and social policy costs—and this is what you're referring to—imposed on household energy bills should be met by general taxation, and I hope you will join us in calling for that.
But can I just also refer to our wider household support fund? I announced an over £50 million household support fund before Christmas that covers other areas, including tackling food poverty as well as fuel poverty, and I hope that you will also welcome the initiatives that we, as a Welsh Government, have been taking.

The Afghan Citizens Settlement Scheme

Rhianon Passmore AC: 4. What discussions has the Minister had with the UK Government regarding the Afghan citizens settlement scheme? OQ57427

Jane Hutt AC: We regularly raise the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme with the UK Government and, since the scheme was announced, I've taken part in several four-nation ministerial calls, with the latest taking place yesterday, and I've raised issues from gaps in eligibility to the slow pace of developments.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, Minister. We know that the physical evaluation of an individual is critical to an individual’s needs, but it is just the beginning of a person’s journey to being settled and secure in a new country. As a nation of sanctuary, I know that in Wales we pride ourselves on offering the support necessary to make sure that people can rebuild their lives and integrate with their communities. Can the Minister outline what ongoing support, therefore, we are offering, as a Government and with our local authority partners, to ensure that those who have been resettled can access all the services that they require?

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Rhianon Passmore for this very important and timely question. Particularly, I'm fortunate that I met with the Minister Victoria Atkins yesterday. Anyone who’s resettled or dispersed to Wales will be supported as far as we’re able, as a nation of sanctuary, as you said, and it is with our partners, as a result of our partnership with local government, the team Wales multi-agency approach, and indeed with our armed services as well, and the Urdd being a key partner, we've supported over 350 Afghan individuals since August, since the evacuation. We have ensured that there’s a holistic assessment of the needs of new arrivals and access to education, healthcare, support in finding employment. But also, interestingly, we developed a peer support group for Afghan families who’ve settled in Wales already, and many will be in your constituencies, drawing on the successful advocacy forum model,and that's delivered as part of the asylum rights project, which Welsh Government funds. This does help Afghan families to connect with each other and support each other to settle in Wales. I did raise issues yesterday with the Minister relating to the biometric residence permits, which are crucial for Afghan citizens to access bank accounts, and other issues following her statement last week.
Can I just at this point, Llywydd, pay tribute to our former colleague Jack Dromey MP, who sadly passed away last week? The day before he passed away, Jack raised our shared concerns that the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme was failing to prioritise the reunion of those at risk in Afghanistan with family who may live in the UK. I do want to just pay tribute to what he did in his political life and, of course, give all of our sympathies to his family and to Harriet Harman, of course, his wife. But what he said—and I think it's relevant to this—he said:
'Our country has a proud history of providing a safe haven to those fleeing persecution. Any watering down of the resettlement scheme would be contrary to our most fundamental values of decency, honesty and fairness.'

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, the Afghan citizen resettlement scheme will provide up to 20,000 Afghan women, children and others most at risk with a safe and legal route to resettle in the UK. It will build on the UK's continuing efforts to support those at-risk Afghan citizens, prioritising those who have assisted UK efforts in Afghanistan and stood up for our values, and those extremely vulnerable people, such as women and girls at risk and members of minority groups.
I know that you stand for this very strongly and I agree with you that Wales needs to play its part in this operation to help these people secure permanent homes and rebuild their lives in the UK, and I know that you have mentioned on a few occasions that Wales is a nation of sanctuary. So, can I ask, Minister, what discussions have you had—I know you mentioned this in an earlier response to my learned colleague Rhianon Passmore—what conversations specifically have you had with ministerial colleagues, your partners in local government, the private sector and voluntary sector to overcome the hurdles you mentioned in your response previously to Rhianon, to ensure that those coming to Wales obtain the housing, education, training and employment opportunities they need to allow them to rebuild their lives, and to repay the debt that we owe them?
You also mentioned the Afghan resettlement fund. Can you please elaborate on what key performance indicators are going to be in place to ensure they actually will prove to be helpful to those wishing to resettle? Thank you so much.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Natasha Asghar. I confirm that I met with Victoria Atkins, the Minister for Afghan Resettlement, yesterday. In fact, I met her with the First Minister for Northern Ireland, and she was meeting Scottish colleagues as well. We're going to have a regular dialogue. She made that statement only last week, in terms of the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, and I've already commented on some of the concerns that I raised with her yesterday, much of which lies with the UK Government. Our authorities, in terms of devolved services, we are already engaged with them. In fact, Victoria Atkins is due to come and visit Wales to look at some of our bridging accommodation, and I will be meeting her with the lead cabinet member of the Welsh Local Government Association as well. This is an area where I raised particular issues in terms of accessing employment opportunities, which are crucial. I've mentioned the biometric residence permits as one key point. We did get some progress yesterday in terms of updating information that was coming through, but I would like to say that we do remain very concerned about delays in helping the at-risk individuals find sanctuary.
The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees referral pathways are not open until the spring. That means at-risk individuals who have been forced to flee may never find their way through this route. This is the key route in to the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, and I think there is a great deal to do. They're not fast-tracking, they're not looking sympathetically at cases of all Afghan asylum seekers already living in the UK. That is illogical and it exacerbates pressure on the asylum system. I do have to say that there's a fundamental inconsistency at the heartof the Nationality and Borders Bill, which says that an Afghan brought to the UK under the resettlement scheme will be well supported, but the same Afghan citizen would not be able to avail themselves of either the ACRS, the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, or the Afghan relocations and assistance policy. They could then, under the Nationality and Borders Bill, be criminalised and not adequately supported. So, I hope we can work on a cross-party basis to address some of these concerns and issues as this scheme unfolds.

The Retrofitting Programme

Jenny Rathbone AC: 5. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change about accelerating the retrofitting programme to households in fuel poverty? OQ57417

Jane Hutt AC: I work with Cabinet colleagues on action to tackle poverty. The new winter fuel support scheme, the proposed increase in Welsh Government funding for the Warm Homes programme from 2022-23, and the consultation on the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme demonstrate our commitment in this area.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Minister. I heard your earlier comments, and I just want to focus in my supplementary question on the role of the private sector, because the worst-insulated homes are in the private rental sector, which is also where tenants are having to pay higher rents. I was speaking to a constituent this weekend about the inability to keep their living room warm, even after eight or nine hours of having the heating on. Obviously the carbon emissions and the money involved are all going out of the window, particularly because the landlord in this particular case is not maintaining the building properly, and they're obviously making a killing from the rents they charge. I just want to look particularly at all those buildings that aren't compliant with the EPC E efficiency rating, because that is the minimum. I don't understand why there are still exemptions for anybody who is trying to rent when this is an absolute minimum requirement and we clearly need to ensure that the private rented sector plays its part. There has been improvement in Cardiff, but there are still over 5,000 homes that do not meet that minimum E rating for energy efficiency, which obviously has huge costs for individuals as well as for the environment. So, what can be done to get landlords to play their part in all of this?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Jenny Rathbone, for this crucially important question this afternoon. You have summarised the dire situation that many private renters are finding themselves in. As you know and are aware, local authorities are responsible for the enforcement of minimum energy efficiency standards in the private rented sector, so it's Rent Smart Wales, working with local authorities and landlords, who are required to provide that information about helping to achieve the minimum standards. We are assured that Rent Smart Wales is working closely with the Warm Homes programme Nest scheme to refer households who potentially meet the eligibility for those home energy efficiency improvements. I've mentioned already this afternoon the extra £30 million in the budget for the energy efficiency of lower income households in the next financial year. That's a 10 per cent increase. But, clearly, this is something that the Minister for Climate Change is primarily taking forward, with my support, looking at what we can do in terms of accelerating the Warm Homes programme and the fuel poverty strategy.

Social Inequalities

Siân Gwenllian AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the lessons learned about social inequalities as a result of the pandemic? OQ57412

Jane Hutt AC: Social inequality has deepened as a result of the pandemic. The socioeconomic duty will provide a framework for action and the new equality, race and disability units will provide robust evidence to inform policy and plans.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I hope your connection improves as I move forward. The pandemic has highlighted the deep inequalities that exist within my constituency between communities and between families. For example, inappropriate housing is a problem in certain parts of Arfon—houses that are too small for the needs of the families living in them, houses that are damp and difficult to heat. And, of course, this has made it more difficult to prevent the spread of COVID during this period, and it's made it more difficult to deal with its impacts.
Now, these families are facing another crisis, the cost-of-living crisis, highlighting another social inequality that will impact very many families in Arfon, according to the latest information, with Gwynedd among the counties hardest hit. The leader of Plaid Cymru asked the First Minister yesterday to address the cost-of-living crisis by holding a summit to come up with a cross-governmental response to the cost-of-living crisis as a matter of urgency. Has your Government had an opportunity to consider this further, and will you support the staging of such a summit to draw up the urgent response that we so desperately need?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Siân Gwenllian. I think many of the questions and responses this afternoon show the importance of us focusing on this issue and the cost-of-living catastrophe that is emerging, made worse by an increase in wholesale gas prices, resulting in many households in Wales falling into fuel poverty. But you've also mentioned housing and the impact of the pandemic for those who are in inappropriate housing. Jenny Rathbone's question really follows through from yours. I've also responded in terms of our Warm Homes programme fuel support scheme and household living costs scheme. I think this is where we do need to now bring all of this together. I will certainly be taking this back to discuss with the First Minister and colleagues as to how we can address this as a cross-government initiative, bringing all the partners around the table. I'm grateful for your question and follow-up from yesterday's raising of this in First Minister's questions by the leader of Plaid Cymru as well.

Question 7 [OQ57403] is withdrawn.

The Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence Strategy

Buffy Williams MS: 8. What are the next steps the Welsh Government intends to take in relation to the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy? OQ57405

Jane Hutt AC: We are currently consulting on a draft strategy and expect to publish the 2022-26 violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy in April 2022. Implementation of the strategy will be based on collaborative working with relevant agencies, and guided by the voices of survivors.

Buffy Williams MS: Thank you, Minister. Over the course of the pandemic, we have sadly seen a rise in the number of reported domestic abuse-related offences. Rhondda Cynon TafWomen's Aid received over 3,000 referrals during this period, and supported 69 children under 16 living in refuge. We have seen the horrific murders of women like Sarah Everard and Wenjing Lin at the hands of men, and we have seen female students too afraid to leave their halls and homes from fear of spiking. Domestic abuse and violence isn't an issue that just affects women of a particular race, age, religion or class; it affects us all. It's so important that women in Wales feel safe and that their voices are heard. How will the Minister promote the consultation on the strategy and ensure women across Wales know where to turn if they are suffering?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Buffy Williams. Can I pay tribute to all of those who provide specialist services in your constituency and, indeed, across Wales? I also thank those who attended the cross-party group yesterday on violence against women and children, chaired by Sioned Williams, which addressed these issues relating to the importance of this new strategy, the consultation that's taking place, particularly looking at the impact of the pandemic and also the horrific murders, as you said in your question, of women like Sarah Everard at the hands of men, and those female students, as you say. We have had the debate on spiking. This is very much a cross-party issue. I'm hoping that we will move forward in terms of the outcome of the consultation, particularly listening to the voices of survivors and also the partners providing the emergency support—all the partners; statutory and devolved, local authorities and policing colleagues—in our new strategy for the next phase of tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence.

And finally, question 9—Sarah Murphy.

A Real Living Wage Nation

Sarah Murphy AS: 9. What progress is the Welsh Government making towards Wales becoming a real living wage nation? OQ57404

Hannah Blythyn AC: The Welsh Government is committed to leading by example as a real living wage employer and working in social partnership to increase real living wage adoption. We have announced our funding commitment to the real living wage in social care and are working more broadly to motivate employers towards the real living wage.

Sarah Murphy AS: Thank you very much, Minister. I welcome the recent announcement regarding the implementation of the manifesto and programme for government commitment to a real living wage for social care workers. I am very pleased that my own Bridgend County Borough Council is also adopting this. It is a tangible and meaningful indication of the appreciation of our social care workers, and also recognises the skills and experience that they have. This will also, hopefully, help with the recruitment drives that local authorities are carrying out at the moment due to the care sector staff shortages.
However, the knock-on effect is that the difference in salary between care workers and their supervisors and manager roles is smaller, and it means that I have had some supervisors and managers say to me, 'Well, what's the point of taking on that extra responsibility if there's not that much difference between the salaries now?' I was just wondering what solutions the Welsh Government has explored to address this issue in both the public and private sectors in Wales.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member for her question, and I'm really pleased that the Welsh Government is determined to see that that real living wage uplift begins to affect the pay packets of social care workers later this year. As the Member points out, this is significant, but it is a first step towards improving terms and conditions for the sector. We certainly recognise as a Government that, while the real living wage is a key component of fair work, it is just part of that package that makes fair work and sustainable employment that benefits both the worker and the employer in the long term.
Like I said, it is the first step in terms of the social care workforce. We will continue to work in partnership, as part of the social care fair work forum, to actually address some of those wider concerns that the Member raised, and the wider pressures that we know exist on the sector itself. Alongside that, we are using all the financial levers and the power of the public purse, and things like the economic contract or the code of practice on ethical employment and supply chains, to encourage more employers outside the public sector to take up the real living wage in their organisations and supply chains.
We are determined to continue to make sure that the Welsh public sector continues to set the right example. Prior to Christmas, both the First Minister and I wrote to public bodies in Wales, urging them to explore taking further steps on implementing the real living wage. I'm really pleased, as the Member said, that Bridgend County Borough Council have recently indicated a commitment to becoming a real living wage accredited employer. So, we are going to be working closely with them, but also with Cynnal Cymru, the body responsible for the Living Wage Foundation accreditation in Wales, to see what more we can do to target certain sectors, and also to see how we can support Cynnal Cymru financially to improve their capacity to roll out real living wage accreditation across Wales.

Thank you to the Deputy Minister and the Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, and the first question is from Jack Sargeant.

Criminal Legal Aid

Jack Sargeant AC: 1. What consideration has the Counsel General given to the recommendations made by Sir Christopher Bellamy's independent review of criminal legal aid? OQ57418

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. Sir Christopher Bellamy makes many essential recommendations about the criminal justice system and criminal legal aid. The extent to which the UK Government accept his recommendations is going to bea good test of the extent to which they are committed to saving the criminal justice system, which they are responsible for.

Jack Sargeant AC: I thank the Counsel General for that answer. Counsel General, I am sure that you agree with me, and with Sir Christopher Bellamy, that the legal aid system needs huge investment to nurse it back to some level of health after years of neglect from various Westminster Governments. But, if we look beyond the scope of Sir Christopher Bellamy's review, we have seen how hard it is for ordinary people to obtain justice—thosesubpostmasters wrongly convicted in Wales and across the UK, those who lost their lives in Grenfell and those fans and their families who went to a football match and never came home. They all had one thing in common: they all had huge barriers put in the way of them obtaining justice. Counsel General, do you agree with me, and do you support calls from Andy Burnham, Steve Rotheram and Police and Crime Commissioner for North Wales, Andy Dunbobbin, to call for a Hillsborough law now?

Mick Antoniw AC: Firstly, can I thank you for that very important supplementary question? Just to say in starting that I, of course, met with Sir Christopher Bellamy and many of the points that you're raising are points that I have raised. And I'm also very grateful to the Member that you regularly raise this issue because access to justice is, to some degree, dependent upon having an effective and working legal aid system. Sir Christopher Bellamy, of course, identified a whole series of access to justice issues in terms of accessibility of lawyers, the desert of legal advice that exists, and also the funding system. But it was quite limited in respect of criminal legal aid.
In respectof the Hillsborough law campaign, it is one I am very, very interested in. In my past life, I was involved, of course, in the Orgreave cases and the demand for an inquiry, for example, into Orgreave, which, had lessons been learnt from that, might well have impacted on the way Hillsborough developed and so on.
Now, the proposals, as I understand them, have come, actually, from the Bishop of Liverpool, and three of the key ones were that there'd be a public advocate, representation at inquests, which is something that I've always argued for, and the duty of candour. And, of course, there are others. So, I think that this is something that is a very, very important call, and I understand why it has come. It relates right to the base of people in communities having access to justice and I think it is an issue I would really like to explore further. It is of course aimed in terms of a UK Government piece of legislation, but there may well be relevant lessons in respect of Wales, and if the Member is happy, I'm more than happy to meet with him, and with, in fact, other Members, in order to explore how the importance of the calls for a Hillsborough law could be relevant to Wales and also relevant to justice that takes place in Wales. And, of course, justice is not devolved. Were it devolved, I think we might be able to move far more progressively and more quickly on this issue. But I'm certainly exploring it; I'm very interested in it, and I'm happy to engage with the Member and others to look further at it.

The Cardiff-Anglesey Flight Link

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 2. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government in relation to the flight link between Cardiff and Anglesey? OQ57422

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member for the question. The service is currently suspended due to the impact of the pandemic, which continues to impact heavily on the global aviation industry. Against this backdrop and at the appropriate time, full and proper consideration will be given to the future of the service. Members will be kept updated by appropriate Ministers.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. For almost two years, the Anglesey to Cardiff flight, as you have just said, has been grounded. Yet, it was disclosed last month that the Welsh Government has paid out over £750,000 in subsidies—taxpayers' money—in the last financial year. The current contract expires on 17 February 2023 and has a maximum value of £8,529,282. Now, a Welsh Government spokesperson has stated that the tender was based on the provision of 10 flight rotations per week and the final costs are determined by a number of variable factors. So, it seems clear to me, therefore, that those variable factors have allowed Eastern Airways to be paid over £0.75 millionof taxpayers' money for zero service in 2021. So, will you clarify whether the Welsh Government has deemed to seek any legal advice in relation to terminating or actually amending this contract?

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member for that supplementary question. Perhaps I could start by saying that the Cardiff to Anglesey service is a public service obligation. It is fully subsidised by the Welsh Government, which it has been able to do under retained EU law—Regulation (EC) No. 1008/2008—and any decisions taken in relation to the route will be made in accordance with the requirements of those regulations.
In respect of the other points that the Member has made, perhaps I could just remind her that I'm answering questions today in my role as Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution. So, my answers are limited to my specific responsibilities and functions as a law officer and the areas covered by my role as the Minister for the constitution. The question, the supplementary you raise, raises specific policy questions relevant to a particular area, and, as such, should be directed to the relevant portfolio Minister who has responsibility for this area.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Sorry, I don't agree.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

We'll move on now to questions from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson first—Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, can you explain to us why the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales has a budget of £3.3 million, please?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. The constitution commission has a budget designed to enable it to carry out its important work of engagement with the people of Wales.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister, but I'm afraid it still doesn't explain why the commission needs to have such a large budget. When I asked you, on the establishment of this commission, what the budget would be, you said that you would write to me. I'm still waiting for your letter—I haven't received it. But, obviously, I've managed to peek at the Welsh Government's budget, which was debated yesterday, and saw that £3.3 million has been allocated to this particular commission. Previous commissions cost around £1 million to undertake their work—and I'm referring there to the Richard commission and the Silk commission, both of which had a budget that was much less than a third of the budget for this commission. So, can I ask you again: why does the Welsh Government feel that it's necessary to spend £3.3 million on this particular piece of work, and can you provide to the Senedd, and me, in accordance with the promise that you made back in October but are still yet to fulfil, a copy of the detailed budget for this commission's work?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well can I say firstly, if you haven't had the letter from me, then apologies for that. Of course, you have the information from the budget, and, of course,I think in previous answers I did refer to the forthcoming budget. In terms of the cost of operating a commission that is going to engage with the people of Wales, over a period of several years, on an issue that is fundamentally important to the future of Wales and the future of the UK, it seems to me absolutely right that there should be sufficient funding to enable it to do that work and to engage with the people of Wales. The engagement part of the commission's work is clearly something that is exceptionally additional to the work of some previous commissions, and is a fundamental part of actually building that consensus that I have described previously.
In respect of the actual breakdown, I suspect the problem with the breakdown at the moment is that the commission is, at the moment, in the process of developing its own strategy and its work programme and the costings of that. And I'm sure further information can be made available in due course, when we have further information about those details. But for now, the important part is ensuring that the commission is able and capable of doing work that is so fundamental to the future of Wales and the future of the UK.

Darren Millar AC: Well, I'm grateful for your apology, Minister. Of course, there's a single line in the budget to cover this particular issue, and I did ask in previous opportunities in the Senedd for an explanation as to what the remuneration would be for both the chairs and the members of the commission, and I'm still awaiting that information. Of course, it's not contained in the budget that has been published. You talk about engagement; of course, the previous commissions did engage quite extensively as part of their work, and managed it within a financial envelope that is significantly different to the £3.3 million that the Welsh Government has sought to allocate.
Now, when you announced the establishment of the commission, you advised Members of the Senedd that you expected it to complete its work by the end of 2023. Can you explain, therefore, why in the budget—the three-year indicative budget that was published—there's still a further £1.1 million allocated for the 2024-25 financial year, which would be after this commission has completed its work? Why is a third of the commission's budget expected to take place after the completion of the commission's work? That seems to me to make no sense at all, or have you revised the timetable?

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I firstly thank you for those further comments? Just to say, in respect of the remuneration, again, I'm sorry if you haven't had the letter, but, certainly, I know I had a written request from one of your Members, Mr Joel James, who asked for that information, and that information in terms of the rates of remuneration have been provided. I'm disappointed if, perhaps within your own group, an individual Member has not made available to you information that was specifically provided. I'm sure that a copy of that letter, if Mr Joel James is in agreement, could be made available to you, and the information is in that. So, I will deal with that.
In terms of the expenditure and the budget, well, the budget takes place in terms of the commission and its work, which doesn't just suddenly come to a stop. How the budget can be expended over a period of time, and the extent to which it is expended, is going to be dependent on the full work programme, but in terms of the delivery of the report, clearly there will be work that carries on from that. And I think I've made clear in previous statements as well that, of course, one of the issues is the establishment, ultimately, of a permanent constitutional commission, not this, and, of course, there would be recommendations on that and it would lead to issues around that. So, it is inevitable that it will go over the particular year timescales. The important thing was an interim report by the end of this year, a full report by the subsequent year, but, of course, those timetables may change because, as you know, debate, discussion and events around the constitution are a work in progress.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cwnsler Cyffredinol, the cross-party Legislation, Justice andConstitution Committee's report on the Welsh Government's legislative consent memorandum on the Professional Qualifications Bill pointed out that without the consent of the Senedd or Welsh Ministers, the Secretary of State or Lord Chancellor would be able to exercise regulation-making powers to amend primary legislation, including Senedd Acts. This means that the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor could potentially exercise the regulation-making powers to amend Senedd Acts and regulations made by Welsh Ministers. Indeed, Tory Ministers in London could go even further and amend the Government of Wales Act 2006, the basis of our current devolution settlement. I think we can all agree it's a matter of basic constitutional principle that the legislative competence of this Senedd should not be modified by regulations made by any Minister in London, especially this current Conservative Government.What discussion have you had, Counsel General, with Westminster Ministers about the use of secondary legislation in Westminster to potentially undermine the devolution settlement here in Wales?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you. You do raise a very important point, and it's a point that I consider across the board in respect of the overall impact of UK legislation legislative consents, and the impact on the devolution settlement. And there are many contradictions and anomalies and difficulties in respect of each piece of legislation that is going through. I've certainly raised that in direct discussions I've had with UK Government Ministers, but I can also tell you: on every single piece of legislation that is going through, the intensity of correspondence and engagement over the issues of consent, over disputes over what may be a reserved matter, what may not be a reserved matter, are all conducted by Welsh Ministers and by Welsh Government on the basis of preserving the integrity of the devolution settlement.
It is certainly right that there are issues that arise in respect of the weakness of the Sewel convention. What I am hoping is that, as progress is being made in respect of the inter-governmental review, the actual creation of bodies and a disputes procedure, and an independent secretariat, will actually provide a mechanism for further engaging, and, I believe, actually enforcing and enhancing the Sewel convention, which has become so weakened, I believe, over recent years, because of direct, I believe, constitutional assaults from the UK Government. So, you're right to raise this point, but I think the inter-governmental arrangements that I would hope there will be further announcements on over the coming weeks and early months will actually begin to tackle part of that constitutional vacuum. I don't think it will resolve it, but I believe it may provide a mechanism for a step towards a more solid constitutional and conclusive constitutional arrangement.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. I don't think I would describe the Sewel convention as weak; I think I'd probably describe it as non-existent at the moment, but there we are. Last week, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, the Lords described the overuse of secondary legislation in Westminster as dangerous for democracy. Lord Judge, the highly respected former lord chief justice, criticised the increase in secondary legislation and said that the House of Commons hasn't rejected a single piece of delegated legislation since 1979. He went on to say,
'thousands and thousands of pages, in small print, are sent out to us every year, telling us all how we should live'
our lives, unless, of course, Cwnsler Cyfredinol, you're invited to a 10 Downing Street garden party. However, I don't think we as a Parliament can ourselves be complacent when it comes to this. There are some real areas of concern that I have in this Senedd. We have seen a huge increase in the use of secondary legislation in this place. In questioning the education Minister on the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill, concerns were raised that sections in the Bill gave a lesser scrutiny role to the Welsh Parliament than previously. And the building safety Act—a UK Government Bill—fully within a devolved area, that you consented to, has 17 clauses that create regulation powers for Welsh Ministers. Now, given the well-known lack of proper scrutiny within the legislative consent memoranda process, and the substantial increase in the use of secondary legislation in this place, what steps are you taking as the legal officer of the Senedd to make sure that this does not become a danger to Welsh democracy in the same way that eminent lawyers are warning about Westminster? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: It is a very important point in respect of the operation of parliaments across the UK, not just in respect of secondary legislation but, of course, the increased use of framework legislation, which ultimately leads to the same powers going to executives and, obviously, diminution in the roles of scrutiny. Can I just say that, on the issue of scrutiny, I have something very much in mind? I very much welcome actually the input from the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee on the issue around legislative consent memoranda, and, of course, there is going to be a Business Committee review of that, and that is an area I've been certainly applying my mind and giving considerable attention to. I think the same applies in respect of the points you raise with regard to secondary legislation, and I include with that framework legislation, because I think, from the Government's side, there are two competing forces: the one is the imperative on Government to get on with legislation, to get on with implementing manifestos, but, equally so, that has to be within the framework of a parliament, where the exercise of powers by government are properly held to account, that they are transparent, and there is a capacity for proper scrutiny. Now, there are real issues of scrutiny for a variety of other reasons as well, as the Member will know, and that is, for example, the extent of legislation that is coming, the issues that arise on legislative consent memoranda and the way in which legislation is having to be responded to so quickly, particularly in the light of Brexit and, of course, rather similar issues in respect of COVID.
What I can say is—and I've said this, I think, in the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, but I can reiterate it here—I am more than happy to engage on a regular basis on those issues of scrutiny, on the discussion around those challenges that we have as not only a new Parliament, as a new democracy, but one that has also—. Each session of the Senedd has an increasing legislative role and increasing responsibilities, and we have to ensure that the democratic structure and the accountability of the Welsh Parliament is operating. There are difficult environments because of the dysfunctional constitutional arrangement we have at present within the UK, but hence the need for our own constitutional commission and also the inter-governmental review and the other considerations that are under way that recognise that dysfunction and are beginning to look at ways of creating a solution to it.

Question 3, Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Sorry, let me get it. Sorry, I hadn't appreciated I had the third question.

You should read the agenda.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Sorry.

'Devolved Tribunals in Wales Report'

Rhys ab Owen AS: 3. Will the Counsel General make a statement on the timetable for the implementation of the recommendations of the Law Commission's 'Devolved Tribunals in Wales Report'? OQ57414

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you very much for that question, Rhys. In my written statement welcoming the publication of the report, I made it clear that the Government strongly endorses the fundamental principle of the recommendations made. We will set out more detail on our plans in the coming months. Members will understand that I cannot give a timetable for the necessary legislation at this stage.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much, Counsel General. I see these recommendations, such as establishing an appeals tribunal, as a very important step in developing the justice system here in Wales. Perhaps it's not given much coverage publicly, but I do think there is huge importance to this. In my view, through the Welsh tribunals, we have a foundation to build a fair and just justice system here in Wales. The tribunals are accessible—the issue of accessibility in the current system was raised by Jack Sargeant—and the tribunals are structured in such a way as to encourage discussion rather than conflict. And what's excellent about the Welsh tribunals is that their development isn't subject to the Westminster Government but to the Welsh Government. We cannot blame Westminster this time, Counsel General. Far too often in the past the Welsh tribunals have been forgotten, falling between two stools because of the nature of the devolved settlement, and I very much hope that the Welsh Government will grasp this opportunity. So, in developing them further, does the Counsel General agree with the fundamental principle that all Senedd legislation should from now on use Welsh tribunals to decide on any dispute arising from that legislation, rather than using the county courts of England and Wales? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question, and, of course, the Member wrote about this in an article in Nation.Cymru, which I read and I agreed with. I agree with him in, firstly, welcoming the work of the Law Commission in the detailed report that we have, which is under serious consideration and with a view to looking at the legislative programme. Also, I think we would all recognise the important work that Sir Wyn Williams has done in respect of the tribunals. The Member is right that the tribunals have come to us in a sort of ad hoc way. Some we have created, some we have inherited, some that have changed, and now is absolutely the right time for these tribunals to come together in a single tier, as is recommended. That is my view. What is equally important, though, is that one of the recommendations or options that's put there is of course the creation of an appellate structure, and it certainly is my thinking that that appellate structure is something that we would want to create and also probably to have the president of tribunals as, effectively, an appeal court judge.
This is a broader issue I was also discussing on my visit to Scotland, where, of course, courts and tribunals have a different framework but some similar issues, and I would hope that this actually becomes what is the embryonic base of the Welsh justice system and that you can also look eventually—. I mean, I don't want to run before we can walk on this—there's still quite a long way to go—but, of course, there are other tribunals that are not devolved, but something not being devolved doesn't mean it can't fit within a tribunal system, and that was an interesting commentary that I had from my visit to Scotland. So, this is a fundamentally important step forward for Wales. Our experience in terms of the way the tribunals have been operating, particularly during COVID, has been, I think, very effective. And I think the proposals that have come forward will put our part of the justice system that we have on a sound footing, independent of Government, able to act as an embryonic Welsh justice system, and with, for the first time, our own appeals structure.

Access to Justice

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 4. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of digital technology on access to justice in Wales? OQ57410

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government assesses UK Government initiatives as they arise to ensure that access to justice considerations have been fully considered. Digital technology has the potential to expand access to justice, but the system has to work hard to ensure that no-one is left behind.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Counsel General for that answer, and he'll know that, during the pandemic, we've seen a real shift to using online services to allow people to access justice across Wales. It's out of necessity, and it has provided some opportunities. Without it, many more people would be affected by the delays and backlogs that we do indeed see. But we've got to bear in mind that not everyone has the ability or the means to use these services. In fact, as the Thomas commission said, it can indeed be harder for those who are digitally excluded to access legal rights. So, can I ask what conversations the Counsel General has had with Ministers in the Ministry of Justice to ensure that they are aware of the importance that we in Wales place on ensuring that all court services are accessible by people who lack digital skills, or indeed lack easy access to digital platforms, or indeed to the legal support that needs to go alongside that digital access to justice?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the supplementary question. You raise a very important point that is an ongoing one. Of course, we do have a digital strategy for Wales, which is a programme for government commitment that makes clear that for people who cannot, or decide not to, participate digitally, there are alternative ways to access public services. Now, of course, within the courts system and certainly within our tribunals, I think our performance has been second to none, and I commented on this during the discussion on the annual report of the president of the Welsh Tribunals and how they've operated during the COVID period digitally and have been able to work very effectively, and, of course, I think some of our tribunals are very particularly suited to those types of hearings. But the point is absolutely right—we have 7 per cent of people in Wales who do not have access to the internet, and we have 23 per cent of people over 16 who are assessed as not having the necessary digital skills. So, that is a very important point in respect of access, and a lot of this has also been exacerbated by the fact that we've had UK Government court closures, which have made individuals more and more dependent on digital access, but it is very clear that there are many failings within the system that need to be identified. I have raised this and I know the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt, has also raised this, and others have, at every opportunity with the Ministry of Justice—that of course we support the benefits that can be achieved through digital access, but equally so there are real equality issues in ensuring that digital access does not become something that prevents access to justice or creates a two-tier system of access to justice.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, digital technology has the potential to reshape the way that justice operates and how people access it. The courts and tribunals service is investing roughly about £1 billion to reform its systems with the aim of bringing new technologies and modern ways of working into the courtrooms, and the Ministry of Justice has created a £5 million innovation fund to promote these new ways to deliver legal support and advice through digital means. This will clearly have an impact on Welsh courts. Further to this, has the Minister assessed the range of opportunities for people to use technology to self-diagnose their problem to establish if their problem is a legal one or not?

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member for that supplementary question. You raise a number of interesting points. The first one—. Of course, the latter point you raise is: have I as a Minister actually considered doing that? Well, of course, the Member will be aware that, despite our request, justice is not devolved. Just think how much better we could actually engage digital operations, public facilities, the public services that are so integral in respect of justice issues, if it was devolved. Now that's something, obviously, that I'm looking at in conjunction with the Minister for Social Justice, to show how we could operate a justice system and better access and better justice, I believe, within a devolved situation. So, that's one area that is under way. Of course, the assessment of that has been being carried out on an ongoing basis by the Ministry of Justice. Unfortunately, the engagement with us over that tends to be rather sporadic. We raise it with Ministers when we speak. The Member will probably not be surprised to know that we still have major hurdles in accessing justice data relating to Wales. Now how do you develop and design social policy and justice policy if you don't even know what the data is in your own country? And we've raised that numerous times at every level. I think the weaknesses of the data availability disaggregation are recognised, but what's happening about it, I don't know.
What I would like to see would be a situation where there was a greater engagement with us, and a greater say in the use of resources in the actual combination of public services and court services through the use of digital facilities, but at the moment we are still very dependent on the Ministry of Justice taking decisions. For example, we have a major civil justice court in the capital of Wales in Cardiff that is not fit for purpose. It is recognised as not fit for purpose; that point has regularly been made and yet we still await a decision on having proper court facilities for families, for representatives, with all the digital and security aspects that are required. So, you hit the right points, but there is still a long way to go for the Ministry of Justice, I believe, to have a comprehensive programme in respect of the use of digital technology and also the recognition of the ongoing need for those who do not have that digital access.

Coal Tip Safety Regulations

Delyth Jewell AC: 5. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government on coal tip safety regulations? OQ57426

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member for her question. Safeguarding our communities remains the Welsh Government’s top priority and we will continue to discharge our devolved responsibilities to do so. We have commissioned the Law Commission to review the legislation, and we will look to bring forward new legislation to allow us to manage disused coal tips in Wales.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that answer. I know that the Welsh Government will be acutely aware of these concerns around coal tip safety. It's something I've raised many times in the Senedd, and I know that, as you have set out, there is work ongoing to find solutions to make the tips that are deemed highest risk, particularly, safe. I would be interested to gain an understanding of the Welsh Government's legal perspective on this. The finance Minister said in a statement in September of last year—and I quote—that:
'The UK Government has a legal and moral responsibility to work with the Welsh Government to address this issue and fund these long-term costs.'
Could you, Counsel General, please explain what these legal responsibilities the UK Government has are, presumably under the Mines and Quarries (Tips) Act 1969, and what role you can play to help ensure that those responsibilities are upheld? Because, as the deputy climate change Minister said at the end of last year, the UK Government is currently abdicating those responsibilities.
And finally, if I may, you referred in your first answer to the consultation being held by the Law Commission, which I welcome. Could you please give us an update on the work undertaken so far and provide a date for us about when you expect them to publish their recommendations, please?

Mick Antoniw AC: Okay. Thank you for a variety of important points in respect of coal tips, and I think your constituency—your region—and the constituency I represent obviously have a large number of coal tips.
I suppose the starting point, of course, is that when the 1994 legislation came in—and, again, going back, in fact, to the legislation after Aberfan in 1969—the focus was on working mines and operating tips rather than defunct tips. And, of course, a further matter has arisen on that, which is, of course, the difference between reclamation and making tips safe. Because reclamation in many areas are areas where Welsh Government has been engaged in, but, of course, the issue of safety of tips is something that has particularly emerged as a result of climate change, and relates to responsibilities, I believe, that go well before devolution. Now, you will have heard me the last time this was raised—and I believe you participated in the questions at that time—that I believe that, at the very least, there is a moral and a political responsibility of UK Government.
The issue of legal liability becomes much more complex because of, really, the weakness of the legislative framework that was created after 1994, where you have tips that are now in different ownerships. Some are still in the ownership of the Coal Authority, who remain responsible for them. The issues arise as to whether the responsibility only relates in terms of safety risks or broader, longer term risks. Whilst all this is going on and whilst the UK Government has clearly abrogated, I think quite shamefully, any responsibility in respect of the pre-devolution legacy of the coal industry, we, nevertheless, have to ensure that our communities are safe. Consequentially, the Law Commission has been carrying out its work. I believe that work is close to conclusion. They did hold a number of sessions, which I understand were quite well attended, within Wales. I've met with them—with the Law Commission—as well and have discussed the ongoing work, and, of course, it is the intention to legislate in this area. We have to legislate to create a framework.
The arguments in respect of funding will carry on and remain, but, as a Welsh Government, our priority, as I've said, is towards the safety of the people of Wales and our communities. So, within the next three-year budget, there's £44.4 million in there for safety work. We've also provided £800,000 to the Coal Authority in respect of their carrying out inspections of high-risk tips, and there is still work going on in respect of the evaluation and analysis of what those are and where they are and what the levels of safety are. And I understand the Minister for Climate Change has, obviously, commented on that in the past and will no doubt do so in the near future.

Joel James MS: As the Counsel General will be aware, there is, presently, inadequate legislation for local authorities to ensure that coal tips on private land are safe. Although the current Act does give local authorities the necessary power to enter private land at any reasonable time in order to inspect and carry out safety tests, a minimum of two days' notice is required. If the landowner refuses, as is their right, there is a requirement for local authorities to obtain a court order to gain entry, and this could take some considerable time. Whilst most landowners, I'm sure, would be more than happy for inspections of disused coal tips, there's nonetheless a legislative limitation that could lead to serious consequences. With this in mind, does the Counsel General believe that this legislation needs to be tightened in order to mitigate any danger to the public due to a delay in disused coal tip inspections, and what considerations has he given to the prospect of amending this aspect of legislation for any new regulatory system? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, I thank Joel for that question, and, yes, the point you raise in respect of the role of local authorities is right, and also in terms of the obligations of private landowners who have coal tips on their property, or even sometimes part of coal tips, as some of the complications. This is an issue I think that has been identified by the Law Commission and is part of the ongoing work, and I'm sure will be part of something that we need to address in respect of any regulatory regime with regard to coal tips. And when we have the full report and the recommendations and we've had an opportunity to considerthose and also the substance of legislation, I'm sure that that will be a significant part of it.

Human Rights Legislation

Rhianon Passmore AC: 6. What consideration has the Counsel General given to the impact on Welsh law of the UK Government's review of human rights legislation? OQ57428

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. Last month, the UK Government launched a consultation on the Human Rights Act 1998. I have concerns about these proposals. My officials and I will be carefully scrutinising the detail to determine the impact on Welsh law and to ensure that the rights of the people of Wales are not diluted.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you. Martha Spurrier, director of human rights group Liberty, has said that:
'This plan to reform the Human Rights Act is a blatant, unashamed power grab from a Government that wants to put themselves above the law. They are quite literally rewriting the rules in their favour so they become untouchable.'
The Law Society of England and Wales's president has said that:
'People from all walks of life rely on the Human Rights Act to uphold and protect their rights. Any reform of this subtle and carefully crafted legal instrument should be led by evidence—not driven by political rhetoric…. We trust that government's final proposals will preserve the UK's deserved reputation as a global leader in upholding human rights both domestically and on the international stage.'
Fundamentally, any loss or regression or diminution of human rights is deeply worrying and destabilising, both to the individual and to the state. Counsel General, what representations and dialogue with the UK Government are ongoing in this area, and has the Welsh Government clearly expressed its position on the very deeply held concerns about such dangerous proposed actions for the Welsh citizen?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that detailed supplementary question. The Human Rights Act review, with a view to creating a new bill of rights, is something that has to be taken very, very seriously indeed. In fact, the Member will be aware that a joint statement has been issued by myself and the Minister for Social Justice specifically on this because of our concerns about the report and the way it is framed. Can I say that it really does the UK Government no credit when the Lord Chancellor, in referring to this review, says that the purpose of it is to counter 'wokery and political correctness', whatever that means?
Human rights are a fundamental part of the Government of Wales legislation, of the devolution legislation, and, of course, all the legislation we apply has to be compliant with that, and I'm fully supportive of that. I have real concerns about the review; they are expressed within the statement. I have real concerns, for example, about the reference to rights inflation. One of the purposes is to, basically, deal with the fact that we apparently have had a growth of rights and we therefore have too many rights and therefore some of our rights have to be restricted. I have real concerns about the—. Although, in the foreword to the report, it addresses the issue of devolution, but, quite frankly, it doesn't then deal with the issue of devolution at all, other than in respect of Northern Ireland. And I also have concerns about the limitation that's been placed within the review, which basically says that it will not look at expanding the issue of social and economic rights. Well, if you're going to have a review of human rights, how can you ignore the issue of the suitability of economic and social rights protection of the people?
So, I have real concern about the pejorative way in which the report has been phrased, the lack of evidence to base some of the assumptions or leading points that are made within it. But what I can assure Members of is that this is a matter of very significant concern across all Parliaments, and we will address that very seriously and put in a very wholesome and I think substantive report on all the interests that we have as a Welsh Parliament in respect of the areas under consideration by the review, but also, I think, the areas that we believe should be added to it that, clearly, the UK Government does not intend to review at the moment, which I think is a great lost opportunity.

Reform of the Human Rights Act

Rhys ab Owen AS: 7. What discussions has the Counsel General had with UK Government law officers about the impact of the proposed reform to the Human Rights Act on Welsh law? OQ57419

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. The proposals in the consultation on the Human Rights Act 1998 are UK Government ones. They do not reflect the views of Welsh Government. My officials and I, and in conjunction with the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt, are carefully considering the consultation document.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. Obviously, from the answer you gave to Rhianon Passmoreand everything else you've done over the years, you clearly agree with me that any changes to fundamental rights, like the Human Rights Act, should always be met with real caution. They form the basis of individual and collective rights within our liberal democracy. We should be adding to them, not taking rights away and talking about stuff like rights inflation.
We are used to the UK Government's power grab from this Parliament by legislating in devolved areas and through the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020. However, I think that here we have something even more serious, because we have a power grab against the Welsh people. As the Minister, Jane Hutt, said in her declaration today: this goes to the very fundamental basis of our devolution settlement. It's a fundamental right that all legislation from this place, be it primary or secondary legislation, needs to be compatible with convention rights, and if they're incompatible, then the people of Wales can hold each and every one of us accountable in court. The proposal preventing a court from quashing certain secondary legislation found incompatible with a person's human rights totally undermines this right. This was a right that the people of Wales—

The Member needs to ask his question now.

Rhys ab Owen AS: —won in a referendum in 1997, a right that was affirmed in a second referendum in 2011, and confirmed in 2021 when the abolishers were totally rejected at the ballot box. What can you do as Counsel General, and what can all of us do from every party, every Member of this Senedd, to protect the rights of the people of Wales? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the supplementary. I mean, I can probably respond by perhaps quoting what the chief executive of Amnesty International said. This is a body that I think has support across political parties and incredible international status. Sacha Deshmukh, the chief executive, she said, 'Let's not pussyfoot around with this. It is not wrong to say that Government ministers risk aligning themselves with authoritarian regimes if their overhaul of the Human Rights Act is successful.'
When you take the review of human rights, what is also proposed in respect of judicial review, which is about limiting the ability of the courts to challenge the exercise of power—the unlawful exercise of power by Governments—when you look at the Nationalities and Borders Bill, which seeks to give arbitrary rights to take away citizenship from individuals, when you look at the police, crime and sentencing legislation, which seeks to provide substantial restrictions on the freedom to protest, what we have is a Government that is moving towards an increasingly authoritarian framework. So, this review is fundamentally important.
I can say, certainly, my view as Counsel General is that I do not want to see any diminution of human rights in terms of our compatibility with human rights legislation, and I think we'll make that clear and many other points clear in the representations that we actually make to the UK Government. You know, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. If ever there was a time to be eternally vigilant, now is it.

Finally, question 8, Huw Irranca-Davies.

EU Retained Law

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 8. What discussions has the Counsel General had with other UK law officers in respect of the UK Government's review of EU retained law? OQ57407

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. The UK Government has informed Welsh Government that it intends to fully engage with the devolved Governments in conducting its review of retained EU law. I await further information with regard to that review and how the UK Government intends to engage with Welsh Government.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: A simple supplementary, Counsel General. In awaiting the future response from the UK Government, I wonder on what basis does he expect engagement between the UK Government and Welsh Government Ministers such as himself, the Counsel General, to be conducted. Should it be on the basis of respect and understanding of the competences of devolved administrations? Does he have any other thoughts on the way he would like this to proceed in a constructive and positive way?

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I first of all say that this was raised by Lord Frost, who has since resigned from Government? We had been informed at official level that the UK Government intended to fully engage with the devolved Governments in conducting their review of retained EU law. We received a letter from Lord Frost, drawing our attention to a written statement setting that out and that it would be discussed at a future meeting of the UK-EU inter-ministerial group. We have no details of the policy proposals; what information we have is extremely limited. My policy officials are pressing for clarity in this and we've asked for meetings later this month for a further update on the UK Government's plans. But in the absence of more detail, it's difficult to assess the impact on the Welsh Government and indeed on the Senedd. But I have to say there is considerable potential for significant impact on Welsh Government with legislative consent motions being required for much of the legislation being brought forward, but also this has the potential to significantly intrude in terms of devolved areas of responsibility.
My immediate concern was the impression appeared to be that we were going to be consulted over this in the same way as any other stakeholder. We're not any other stakeholder within this process; we are one of a number of UK Parliaments and Governments that have to be properly engaged with in that context, because of the impact this may have on our legislative capacity, on the devolution settlement and, indeed, on all those policies we have about standards and economic and social justice.

I thank the Counsel General.

3. Questions to the Senedd Commission

We now move to questions to the Senedd Commission. There is just one question this afternoon, and I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to ask that question.

The Senedd's Engagement Activities

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 1. What assessment has the Commission made of the impact of COVID-19 on the engagement activities of the Senedd and its committees? OQ57408

COVID-19 has not prevented us from undertaking important engagement work, but it has meant that much of the work has moved online. We have run focus groups and events online, as well as education sessions, surveys and workshops. While this has caused some challenges, it's also offered opportunities for us to reach people who have not previously engaged with our work, such as those who find it difficult to travel to our activities. We have been mindful of those who are digitally excluded by conducting face-to-face interviews wherever possible or to contact over the phone when needed. We are currently evaluating and reviewing our online engagement work to ensure that it complements face-to-face work when restrictions allow.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you very much for that answer.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I have to say we have to give a compliment to all the people within the Commission who've managed to adapt very rapidly to moving services and provision online so that we can do the sort of engagement we've seen, and not least amongst this, I have to say, is the welcome approach of the education outreach section, separate from our committees and everything else, who've done so much to keep an involvement with our schools and potential young electorate as well, as we lowered the voting age to 16 at the last election. I wonder, though, whether or not you are anticipating a time when, whilst keeping the benefits of what we've learned through working online and a virtual medium, we also are able to bring young people, in particular, back to the Senedd, to the physical infrastructure, to the tangible manifestation of our place of democracy in Wales as soon as it is COVID safe, because there is no substitute, I have to say, to guiding them around this building, being in the education unit and hearing here in Cardiff exactly how we conduct our business of scrutiny.

Yes, I'm certainly anticipating the time when young people from schools and colleges right throughout Wales can once again visit our Senedd. I appreciate, I think as all Members do, the opportunity to meet those young people when they come to the Senedd to have a chance to discuss with them and enthuse them on the role that democracy plays directly with their lives, and to do that in the Senedd provides that opportunity for all—not that everybody's enthusiastic about it, but most young people very much benefit and enjoy the opportunity of visiting their Senedd.
But also, in addition to reopening our doors for the young people of Wales, we mustn't lose sight of the opportunities that have been now additionally added to our ability to contact young people virtually. We've known for a very long time that it is, of course, more difficult for schools and colleges in west, mid and north Wales to visit the Senedd as often as they would like to. So, virtually meeting young people from those areas will carry on, hopefully, beyond the pandemic, as it will for all. But I think that we're all very much keen to see our young people out of their schools, visiting environments different to their school settings, and hopefully taking advantage of the ability to learn more about their Senedd by visiting us in Cardiff Bay as soon as possible.

I thank the Llywydd.

4. Topical Questions

No topical questions have been accepted today.

5. 90-second Statements

So, we'll move on to item 5 on the agenda, the 90-second statements. The first statement is from Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. On Saturday 8 January this year, Hanef Bhamjee OBE passed away in hospital surrounded by the love and care of members of his family. During the past four decades, I can think of no-one who has done as much as Hanef for the cause of equality, anti-racism and social justice.
Born in South Africa, his opposition to the apartheid regime brought him to the attention of the South African security services and, in 1965, for his own safety, it was necessary for him to leave. In 1972, he settled in Cardiff and Wales became his permanent home. I first met Hanef in 1973, during the campaigns against the Vietnam war and the fascist coup in Chile. As with Hanef, Wales became a welcoming home for many fleeing political oppression, a nation of sanctuary. But above all, Hanef is best known for becoming the voice of the anti-apartheid struggle in Wales. Through his advocacy, campaigning and pure strength of character, he put Wales on the international anti-racism stage. Hanef created a unity of purpose and principle throughout Welsh religious, civic, cultural and political society. After the release of Nelson Mandela, he qualified as a solicitor, supporting refugees and immigration rights as well as continuing charitable work supporting South African charities. In 2003, he was awarded the OBE by Her Majesty the Queen for his work, and in 2009 he was awarded the Mahatma Gandhi award for peace and reconciliation. Hanef was so proud to be a Welsh South African. We in Wales should be equally proud that he became one of our friends and citizens. Our thoughts at this moment are with his family and friends. His legacy lives on and the struggle continues. Amandla.

Vikki Howells AC: Born in Cwmaman on 19 August 1934, Ron Jones was a champion Welsh sprinter. Over 14 years, he won 12 Welsh sprint titles and set 22 Welsh records. What makes this achievement remarkable is that his career had an accidental start. His first 100 yd victory at the 1956 Welsh championships was only the second or third such event Ron had ever run. Ron was one of the few Welsh athletes ever to hold a world record in athletics as part of the British 4x110 yd relay squad in 1963. He also captained the British Olympics team in Mexico City in 1968. Altogether, Ron picked up 31 international vests, competing in four Commonwealth Games, three European championships and two Olympic Games. After athletics, Ron held senior roles at several football clubs, including eight years as the first managing director at Cardiff City. Ron was also a driving force in SportsAid Cymru Wales, helping thousands of young Welsh citizens achieve their sporting ambitions. Ron achieved an MBE in 2001 and was inducted into the Welsh Sports Hall of Fame in 2013. Perhaps his greatest honour came in 2018, when the new £3 million athletics track in Aberdare was named after him. Ron sadly died on 30 December 2021, but his legacy as one of Wales's greatest athletes lives on.

Sioned Williams MS: This week, the artist Mike Jones from Pontardawe passed away. Mike was renowned for his portrayals of the industrial communities of south Wales, particularly in the Swansea valley of his birth. Mike was brought up in Cilmaengwyn and Godre'r Graig, near Ystalyfera, when heavy industry in the area was at its height. His father was a miner, and his parents were also publicans, and this provided the ideal venue to observe the local characters. And Mike was one of the many talented creatives inspired by the Welsh-speaking industrial communities of the Swansea valley.
He is recognised as one of the foremost artists who portrayed these communities. His work has been exhibited in galleries across Wales and beyond, including the royal academy in London, as well as galleries in New York and New Zealand. Mike Jones’s work portrays the lives of the characters in his square mile—miners, tin and steel workers, farmers and housewives, as well as the villages of terraced houses where they lived.
Last year saw his eightieth birthday celebrations, and a number of successful exhibitions were held across Wales. He was delighted that Tŷ'r Gwrhyd in Pontardawe and Cylch Darllen Cwm Tawe arranged a special exhibition of his work to celebrate his birthday in the autumn. I received the first of his works in the collection I now have as a wedding present, and after moving to the Swansea valley soon afterwards, I was privileged to get to know Mike Jones and to visit his extraordinary studio in his home in Pontardawe. He was also a generous supporter of local causes, contributing valuable paintings to help raise money for local Welsh-medium schools, eisteddfodsand Plaid Cymru.
We send our condolences to his wife, Eryl, and family for their loss. The Swansea valley and the whole of Wales have lost a very special talent and a passionate Welshman.

Motion to elect a Member to a committee

Next is the motion to elect a Member to a committee. I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion. Darren Millar.

Motion NDM7885 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Sioned Williams (Plaid Cymru) as a Member of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee in place of Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru).

Motion moved.

Darren Millar AC: I move.

Sorry, Darren, I didn't hear you.

Darren Millar AC: I move.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee Report: Debt and the pandemic

Item 6 on the agenda is a debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee report on debt and the pandemic. I call on the Chair of the committee, Jenny Rathbone, to move the motion.

Motion NDM7879 Jenny Rathbone
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Equality and Social Justice Committee report, 'Debt and the pandemic', laid on 15 November 2021.

Motion moved.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much for calling me. This is the first debate on the work of the Equality and Social Justice Committee. Our report looked at the impact of the pandemic on personal indebtedness and how the Welsh Government and public services should be responding. At the forefront of everybody's mind today—apart from the fate of our current Prime Minister—is the unprecedented rise in energy prices. That wasn't, however, at the top of everybody's minds when we started consulting stakeholders in August and took oral evidence in September and October. At that point, rent and council tax arrears were and are just as significant as food and fuel bills for households whose income is insufficient to meet all their everyday needs. As widely predicted, all these problems are getting worse, not better.
A year into the pandemic, StepChange captured the fact that one in five households were in financial difficulties, and at least one in 12 households had fallen into debt. The Bevan Foundation report highlighted how at least one in eight households, at that point in May last year, had had to reduce food shopping to pay for heating, or not heating the house properly to keep food on the table. Six months later, further research by YouGov, commissioned by the Bevan Foundation, tracked how the situation has deteriorated in that last half year. The crisis, unfortunately, is likely to unravel further as a result of the cruel cut to universal credit, the end of the furlough payments related to COVID, and the upcoming rise in national insurance contributions.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The public is not stupid. Many of our witnesses and contributors foresaw this huge hike in energy costs that households are now grappling with. They predicted that this was going to be a tsunami or perfect storm, which, I'm afraid, is now staring us in the face. This is not simply an energy crisis compounded by a climate emergency. Britain is now significantly poorer as a result of the decision taken to withdraw from the single market with our European neighbours, and Wales has taken that hit particularly badly as manufacturers are much more vulnerable than services to increased bureaucracy and hold-ups at ports. And that hold-up has obviously translated into significant rises in the costs of everyday foods. Bluntly, the problems are getting worse, not better. The rising cost of living, and the end of key measures of Government support, all point to a very, very difficult period ahead for many, many households.
What can we do about this? Well, first of all, we must work together. We made 14 recommendations in our report, covering everything from data collection to council tax arrears, and I would like to thank the Minister for Social Justice for her helpful and constructive response to the committee's recommendations, having accepted nine recommendations in full, and accepting the remaining five in principle.
Building on the warnings from our witnesses, it is vital that people struggling to make ends meet are not falling into the hands of people who only make things worse for them. The Welsh Government's creation of the single advice fund two years ago, integrating all advice services, makes it more likely that people will get help at an earlier stage in their indebtedness. There's the Welsh Government decision, in light of our recommendation, to use community-based organisations to spread the message of hope and help to targeted groups who may not know about these single advice services. Also, we need to build on the very effective social media messaging they've used to increase the take-up of benefits to now tackle reducing the stigma associated with being in debt. People must come forward and get help from those who really can offer good alternatives to the doorstep lenders and the loan sharks.
Fuel poverty, we can all agree, is now a major cause for concern, and the Welsh Government's £100 winter fuel payment to low-income households provides some short-term respite but it's not sufficient. The committee will return to the need for accelerated plans to tackle fuel poverty, including bringing all social homes up to energy rating A in the shortest time possible, in our forthcoming inquiry into the Warm Homes programme and what we need to do about fuel poverty. But we cannot lose sight of other challenges.
For example, the most common debt issue raised with Citizens Advice in 2020 was council tax debt. The financial year 2020-21 saw the largest single-year increase in council tax arrears in 20 years, rising to nearly £157 million. We heard concerns about pockets of bad practice in terms of how these debts are sometimes being collected, and very much welcome the Welsh Government's willingness to review how the council tax protocol for Wales is working, whether it needs to be strengthened or be placed on a statutory footing. We welcome the Welsh Government's openness to contemplate debt bonfires of public sector debts that are likely to be irrecoverable, but we all need to recognise that there are opportunity costs to such a decision.
Housing debt and evictions were also featured as having got a lot worse, and witnesses confirmed that the ban on evictions across the whole rental sector had been vital in preventing homelessness during the height of the pandemic. Recommendation 10 points to the importance of maintaining that section 21 six months no-fault evictions notice period once any COVID-related regulations cease. We note that the Welsh Government, in its response, is committed to finally implementing the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 before this summer's recess, and the Senedd must ensure this deadline is met. We hope the pandemic will recede, but its legacy of indebtedness will endure well beyond that.

Jenny Rathbone AC: On a related matter, we were concerned by allegations from Shelter Cymru of alleged police involvement in illegal evictions during the pandemic, repeated in both their written and oral evidence. We sought further details from Shelter on exactly what information had been shared with the police. After our report was published, I wrote to all four police forces in Wales asking them to respond to these allegations, and it is important to note the police response, which is that an urgent request, as soon as they were made aware of this problem, was made to Shelter Cymru to provide further information, and this was followed up by a further request in October. But Shelter, unfortunately, responded to say they were unable to give any additional details, due to staff shortages, at that point. Some limited additional information was received on 19 October, but that was insufficient to enable investigation of specific cases or allegations. I received that letter on 14 December. I want to raise this because I think we need to stop any hares running here. It's entirely appropriate for Shelter to pick up specific cases of allegations of police involvement in illegal evictions, but they need to do so in a meaningful way. Shelter has yet to provide the police with the dates and addresses of where these alleged illegal evictions occurred, as that is the only information that would allow the police to chase that up in terms of the operational responsibilities. Until or unless Shelter or anyone else has exhausted the pursuit of a complaint against the police or any other organisation, they shouldn't be going public on it. They need to give the organisation complained against the opportunity to respond.
Turning to another matter, we received compelling evidence on the role of affordable credit providers, whether they are credit unions or Purple Shoots, an interesting not-for-profit microcredit provider, who offer a much safer option than illegal lenders or high-interest credit providers. However, not everyone is aware of these sorts of organisations or what they can provide, and, therefore, resort to or are pressured into much more damaging solutions. There's a role here also for the discretionary assistance fund in its future guise, because that played a very significant part in helping people with discretionary awards during the pandemic. We heard from a range of stakeholders that the Government should consider making the flexibilities that were available in the DAF during the pandemic a permanent feature, and they also want to see the application process streamlined and written in easy-to-understand language, so everybody, hopefully, can access it. I'm very pleased that the Government has accepted that these issues will be considered in its review of the successor to the DAF.
I want to thank all those who contributed to the inquiry, either by submitting evidence or taking part in one of our online focus groups. I want to highlight the pivotal role of the Bevan Foundation. Its work on debt raised it up the agenda for all of us, and their initial report into the pandemic and debt in Wales certainly helped prompt the committee into undertaking this inquiry as our first one. I also want to thank Rhys Morgan and the rest of the clerking team, the research behind this report led by Gareth Thomas, and the excellent outreach engagement work with the public led by Rhys Jones. I hope that Members will use this opportunity to share with us what they think we can do to really try and manage these very, very difficult problems, and what strategies we areable to pursue in Wales to prevent more people going into debt and, indeed, possibly becoming homeless and destitute. I look forward to hearing Members' contributions.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you to Jenny as Chair of the committee, and other members of the committee and all of the officials for this debate. And thank you too to all of those who gave evidence.

Jane Dodds AS: Back in March 2020, we were told that we were all facing the same storm, but whilst we may have been facing the same storm, we weren't all rowing in the same boat—those on low incomes, the self-employed, the 3 million United Kingdom taxpayers not entitled to Government support, single parents, renters, and the list goes on. A separate report published today stated that UK households have suffered the biggest fall in available cash in eight years, and that the unique pressures facing young people risks creating a generation precariat, with only half of young adults able to make ends meet each month.
On one specific issue in the report, I was very pleased to see in the response from the Welsh Government an acceptance of the committee's recommendation to pursue an idea of a debt bonfire, which the Welsh Liberal Democrats put forward in last May's election. We propose that the Welsh Government make available a limited fund to purchase and write off public sector-related debt, where this may prevent someone from accessing services or support. A debt bonfire could be a powerful solution for those who are trapped under the weight of debt and who can't escape debt because of the limited support available to them. And, of course, there are many, many other recommendations in the report that I welcome.
But the reality is that there are steps that the United Kingdom Government could be taking now that could give people a brighter outlook for the year ahead. One is the Conservatives revisiting the decision to freeze the personal tax allowance, which will see 85,000 people in Wales paying more income tax. They could have opted for a fairer way of raising additional revenues than through hiking national insurance contributions. People are facing this cost-of-living disaster that we're hearing so much about, and we have to do everything possible, both Governments, to ensure that the pandemic and the rapidly rising cost of living do not leave millions behind. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Altaf Hussain AS: As a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, I am delighted to contribute to today's debate on our report, 'Debt and the pandemic'. The pandemic has taken its toll in different ways. For many people it hit financially—they faced job insecurity, less income, higher bills. It has compounded the financial problems that families have been grappling with.
I believe this inquiry and our report is a testament to the enthusiasm of all Members who wanted to understand more about the complexities of the debt experienced by people in Wales and the impact of the pandemic on individual and household finances. I want at the outset to thank our Chair, Jenny Rathbone, who has skillfully led the committee through this inquiry, and the Minister for accepting in full or in principle the recommendations that we settled on.
It is the response of the Government that I want to focus on this afternoon, because as the Minister rightly said in her letter to the committee, there is an urgent need to tackle the growing debt burden that is being faced by some of our most vulnerable households in Wales. I also want us to remember that, for many people, the challenge of managing debt and attempting to resolve their problems can be a lonely affair. There is a significant risk that those in society with less to start with will witness a disproportionate impact on their financial health because of the pandemic, and this has been well documented in other studies beyond this inquiry—[Inaudible.]—and increasing worries, strain, depression and longer lasting mental ill health.
According to the mental ill health charity Platfform, these anxieties and distresses have not, however, been experienced uniformly, and there is good evidence that the pandemic and our responses to it have widened these health inequalities. They also observe that mental health is known to be linked to wider inequalities that are prevalent in our society. There's a link between financial health and mental health, and the effect of the pandemic on the financial health of those who were already struggling is going to provide the basis for a range of ongoing challenges that this Government needs to meet.
The evidence to the committee was comprehensive. The recommendations are based on that evidence and the discussions that followed. There appears to be little disagreement between the committee and the Government about the seriousness of the challenges that many people face in Wales, although I do want to see some speed put into the work the Government is committed to.
I want to raise three points in support of the committee report this afternoon. Firstly, the importance of data. Without information we will have little ability to affect the life chances of those in debt. Planning will be pointless without understanding the complete picture, which is why I welcome the Government's acceptance of the committee's view that their equalities data unit should work with organisations in the sector to collate and publish annual data on debt in Wales, broken down by protected characteristics. My concerns about health inequalities, especially mental ill health, should feature in the work undertaken, so that we fully understand the consequences of the debt position beyond the financial.
Secondly is the disproportionate impact of debt and the pandemic on different groups. In our report we outline how much of the evidence pointed to the differing impact on different groups. Organisations such as StepChange, Citizens Advice and the Bevan Foundation provided evidence that some groups are more likely to experience debt than others, such as people who are unemployed or in insecure work, people whose work has been affected by the pandemic, single parents, parents with young children, renters, people from some ethnic minority communities, and people with disabilities. In addition, the Bevan Foundation highlighted that households with an annual income below £40,000 a year were significantly more likely to be in arrears than higher income households. Furthermore, they found that people living in social rented accommodation are more likely to be in arrears on every major bill than any other group. This evidence demonstrates how complex the picture is and how it will not be resolved quickly.
Thirdly is the importance of us holding the Welsh Government to account and returning to this subject as soon as we can. I appreciate that there are matters beyond our control, but people expect Welsh Ministers to act. In doing so, I expect that other departments within Government should be engaged in this agenda as we also seek to provide a stronger economy from which people should be able to benefit.

Can I ask you to conclude now?

Altaf Hussain AS: Yes, Deputy Presiding Officer. Along with that, there's a medical debt, which we have not addressed so far, but the Chair has agreed that we'll be looking into that. It is a huge concern for me, personally, that this is going on here, and we are not doing anything about it. Thank you very much.

Sioned Williams MS: All of us in the Siambr read numerous reports and briefing documents about the problems that we need to tackle, but I'd like to note, as a new Member of the Senedd, that this was my first committee inquiry, that into the pandemic and debt, and that the direct evidence that we heard about how we need to do more to support families in keeping their head above water had deeply affected me. Because, even though the report mentions the pandemic impact on debt levels, it was clear from the evidence that these debts had been exacerbated, rather than caused, by the pandemic.
The report has found that 18 per cent of adults in Wales—a higher proportion than England and Scotland—have faced financial hardship as a result of the pandemic. The indicators that led the committee to hold an inquiry into this issue in the first instance have turned into a clear and frightening depiction of a crisis, the like of which hasn't been seen since the financial crisis over a decade ago. And there is worse to come.
The words used were striking and should give us all pause. I have quoted from the report in previous debates in this place, but they are worth repeating.
'What really worries me',
said one witness,
'is a potential 30% increase in gas and electricity prices in 2022. That is going to push people into Victorian poverty.'
Well, 2022 is here. The warnings were accurate, if not slightly conservative, bearing in mind the Centrica boss's warning today regarding gas prices, and the older people's commissioner's concerns today about the ensuing impact on pensioners.
The pertinent question in the report is why so many families are in such a vulnerable position in the first place. What can be done about this, and what else could be done to protect people in any future crises?
Those who are most at risk of suffering problem debt are those households that already face socioeconomic disadvantage in our society, people such as renters, those on low incomes or in insecure employment, disabled people, children, single parents, older people, care leavers, and people from ethnic minorities. The report contains numerous examples of the way that problem debt disproportionately impacts some groups in society and increases socioeconomic inequality in Wales. For example, disabled people have been twice as likely of being in arrears during the pandemic, and the Bevan Foundation reported that its research had demonstrated that people living in social housing were more likely to be in arrears for all bills than any other group. We heard that 43 per cent of survivors of domestic abuse had been pushed into debt.
We have to take major steps as a matter of urgency to tackle this problem of debt affecting children's welfare—they are our nation's future. The revelation that one in five families has had to cut back on items for children, and one in 10 families with two children has had to cut back on food, is difficult to comprehend in the Wales of the twenty-first century—a Wales that is part of a state that is one of the richest in the world. It is disgraceful. It is unforgivable. And it's a problem not just for today or tomorrow, but one that will be with us for decades to come if we don't take urgent action. Living in a household with debt problems, facing financial strain, is an adverse childhood experience, and can have a lifelong negative impact on a young person's health and opportunities.
The Government must seek solutions of all kinds, with regard to housing, taxation, public transport, and support payments such as the EMA. In accordance with the calls made in the committee report, Plaid Cymru wants to see a new focus from Government on accelerating work to ensure that all social housing is A-rated for energy efficiency, and to ensure the better promotion and support of debt advice services and sources of affordable credit amongst those at greater risk of debt, and making the temporary flexibility in the discretionary assistance fund permanent. It is concerning to see that the funding allocated to the fund in 2022-23 is lower than it was in the previous two financial years.
I am pleased that the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru contains vital measures to tackle poverty and its impact on families, such as free school meals for all primary pupils, expanding free childcare provision to include two-year-olds, reforming council tax, and ensuring measures to tackle the housing crisis. We support the recommendations in the report calling on the Government to take specific steps as a matter of urgency, and, as I have previously said, Plaid Cymru believes that there are other steps that the Government could take that could light a candle in the dark. The co-operation agreement also includes a commitment to devolve the administration of welfare.

The Member must come to an end now, please.

Sioned Williams MS: I am coming to an end—final sentence.
We must ask ourselves for how much longer we can afford to accept the restrictions imposed on us as a nation by an unbalanced union, a Westminster Government that doesn't care a jot about Wales, and a completely inadequate and unjust funding formula. How many other reports like this one, containing clear warnings that something has gone badly wrong, must we read before we demand the powers to safeguard and lift up our people? Thank you.

Sarah Murphy AS: As a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, I am pleased that this was our first inquiry, and I would like to thank my fellow committee member Sioned Williams, along with the Bevan Foundation's research, for suggesting this, and my colleagues on the committee, the clerks and the whole team that has been working behind the scenes to help us.
Tackling household debt is incredibly crucial and timely, and it often relates to people who are suffering in silence across our communities in Wales for a variety of reasons. In my own constituency of Bridgend, Citizens Advice services helped nearly 1,000 people with debt issues over the last year, and they've seen a surge in demand over the last few months. In Bridgend alone, Citizens Advice calculated a 74 per cent increase in people seeking help for issues of debt, compared to pre-pandemic figures. Shelter Cymru has told me that vulnerable residents in Bridgend pay nearly £3,000 a month for temporary accommodation. There are people in my constituency whose rent is so high that they are forced into using food banks to feed themselves and their families and are spiralling further into debt.
There is no denying that the COVID-19 pandemic has exacerbated this risk of debt for vulnerable households. I first became aware of issues with this in my community within the first few days of the first lockdown. I had a call from a Bridgend county borough councillor, Jane Gebbie, explaining to me that there were people in their homes in her ward of Pyle and Kenfig Hill who couldn't go to the newsagent to top up their energy or fuel card, so they were sitting in their homes freezing. And the solution that they found for this—the only thing they could do in those initial days—was just to get on the phone to the energy companies and beg them and explain that it was an emergency and get them to send out pre-topped-up cards for people and figure out how to pay for it afterwards, which is what they did. It was a race against time for the volunteers at Talbot community centre in Kenfig Hill to come up with that solution.
And with the expected rises in energy prices, the cut to universal credit and the upcoming national insurance increase, 2022 poses a great threat to the most vulnerable households, as we've heard from my fellow committee members today. I know that the Welsh Government continues to make strong and urgent representations to the UK Government on behalf of those in our community who are suffering, yet time and time again, we see decisions made in Westminster that penalise the most vulnerable and exacerbate conditions like fuel and household debt and poverty. Think tanks, as has been said today, have labelled 2022 as the year of the squeeze, and for many people that's the reality of the situation that they're in. From single parents to low-income households, those with disabilities and renters, how much more pressure is going to be put on them to stay afloat? Every £1 deducted in Westminster, every price increase on a food shop, is yet another shove into debt. The Welsh Government accepting all 12 of the recommendations by the committee is essential if we are to protect so many vulnerable households over the next coming months. The discretionary assistance fund and the one-off winter fuel support scheme providing a payment of £100 to eligible households are examples of the way in which those who govern in Wales are protecting the most vulnerable households in our community.
It was also vital to hear evidence from credit unions during our inquiry. I am a proud and longstanding member of Bridgend Lifesavers Credit Union, with over 5,000 members. Together, we are members of a worldwide group of financial co-operatives dedicated to improving the financial well-being of millions of people. There are no third party shareholders. Credit unions also pass any surplus profits made directly back to us and our community, and the staff are financially sympathetic. They don't just look at somebody like they're a credit score. This is why I am particularly pleased with the Minister's acceptance of and response to recommendation 12, to promote affordable credit sources among those at heightened risk of debt over the next six months. And some positive news today is that the Talbot community centre in Kenfig Hill that I mentioned earlier on, which did so much for people during the COVID pandemic who were getting into debt, they will be opening a credit union branch in the coming weeks, and this is going to save people in my community money and empower us and keep the money circulating within our community to benefit the many.
I want to end by thanking everyone who provided evidence to us in this inquiry. Many are the voice of the people who are struggling. Debt can often come with feelings of incredible shame and denial, and you listen to people often working within systems that are very powerful and with bureaucracy that can be incredibly slow. Your dedication to helping people is really making a difference in people's lives.

Heledd Fychan AS: I'd like to thank the committee for tabling this debate today, and for their work on this important report. Thanks too to everyone who contributed to the inquiry, which has painted a heartbreaking picture of the hardship that so many people in our communities have faced during the pandemic, hardship that they continue to face. It's difficult to comprehend the scale of the problem, and I’m pleased to see recommendations on what we can do in practical terms as a Senedd in the short term and longer term to ensure better support for people who are facing economic hardship that means that they have to go into debt to be able to afford essentials such as food, heating and clothes, things to which we all have a fundamental right.

Heledd Fychan AS: Unfortunately, in my opinion and that of my party at least, Westminster continues to be largely responsible for the measures that could really help us tackle debt and payment defaults, as well as the increased cost of living. It does concern me a great deal that we have a Prime Minister and a Conservative Government in Westminster that have, time and time again, demonstrated that they don’t care a jot about the most vulnerable people in Wales, by introducing cruel measures that have a disproportionate impact on them, such as increasing national insurance contributions and cutting the universal credit uplift.
But, as we do everything within our power to press for the full devolution of welfare and taxation to Wales, the Welsh Government must do everything within its current powers to address the problems that debt creates for households across Wales. A key way of doing this would be through supporting people in debt to devolved public services, and I was pleased to see Jenny Rathbone talking about council tax in particular. The fact that this is one of the main forms of debt mentioned when people contacted StepChange and Citizens' Advice during the pandemic does mean that we have to tackle this issue. Jenny Rathbone noted that extraordinarily frightening figure, namely that council tax debt had increased to £157 million in 2020-21, which is an increase of £46.4 million as compared to the previous year, the biggest single increase in 20 years.
But our public bodies shouldn’t be creating more debt for people, and I hope today that we can all agree that we should be helping to prevent debt from arising in the first place, or preventing debt from becoming unmanageable. There are things that the Welsh Government could take action on in this regard and ensure that our councils adopt progressive policies to manage debt. Such a policy could ensure that councils identify and support households facing financial problems effectively, as well as preventing some of the cruel practices deployed by bailiffs, and preventing bailiff fees and legal fees from accumulating and increasing for those who are unable to pay them. Citizens' Advice found that a number of their clients had faced difficulties in agreeing affordable council tax repayment plans, and that some had been belittled and intimidated by bailiffs, despite being unable to make repayments or demonstrating signs of vulnerability. This is not right.
I’d also like to emphasise the impact that this has on individuals, something that can’t be overstated, in terms of their physical and mental health. Living in a home without heat as a result of fuel poverty can lead to or exacerbate a number of serious medical conditions such as heart attacks, stroke, bronchitis and asthma, while uncertainty regarding food can lead to malnourishment, which is related to other health issues. Inevitably, therefore, debt, financial uncertainty and poverty often lead to poor mental health, leading people to feel that their lives are entirely out of their control, which can also lead to feelings of hopelessness, embarrassment, guilt, depression and anxiety. The social stigma associated with debt can also lead to individuals feeling isolated, meaning that they keep their problems to themselves to an extent that any support they do receive is inadequate.
We all, therefore, have a responsibility as Members of this Senedd to do everything within our power to support our constituents, and that's why I am today pleased to have this opportunity to contribute to this debate and support the committee’s report. Action and support are urgently needed, and I very much hope that we can send a clear message to everyone suffering as a result of debt that support is available, and that we will do everything we can in Wales to improve their situation.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you for the opportunity to respond to this important debate on the 'Debt and the pandemic' report, published by the Equality and Social Justice Committee, with such a strong debate this afternoon, which adds such weight to your report and recommendations. I welcome the report, with its insightful recommendations. I thank the Chair and members of the committee for your significant contribution and hard work during your inquiry.
Before Christmas, I also met with the Bevan Foundation to discuss their latest survey within their 'A Snapshot of Poverty' report series. The figures show that personal debt is now, as you said in the debate, a major problem in Wales. Twenty-five per cent of people surveyed said that they had had to borrow money since May 2021, and 12 per cent had already fallen behind with their repayments by at least one month.
I fully agree with the committee on the importance of tackling the growing debt burden that's being faced by people in Wales. Our efforts to find them a pathway out of debt will be strengthened by implementing these report recommendations. There are more actions, clearly, that we can take, and we will take, as a result of our programme for government, our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru and also other dimensions that, in fact, we've been debating and discussing over the past two days, in terms of the cost-of-living crisis and your next inquiry.
It has never been more important than it is now that services such as debt advice and affordable lending reach people who are at higher risk of getting into debt. I welcome the recommendations in relation to wider promotion of our services. We will be supporting all our partners to work with more community groups, who already have very established relationships in place in local communities with people who need the help the most.
You engaged with those local groups, I know, and you've mentioned them. The recommendations relating to our existing support mechanisms for those in financial crisis through the discretionary assistance fund are very relevant, given that we will see increasing numbers of people looking to us for support, so I welcomed that recommendation on the DAF.
I also welcome the written statement that has just been published by the Minister for Climate Change, which, hopefully, you've been able to have sight of, extending the tenancy hardship grant to cover arrears built up to 31 December 2021. The statement confirms that eligibility has been extended to social housing tenants not in receipt of housing-related benefits. This brings their access to financial help in line with all other renters. You called for that in recommendation 11, so that's also a positive indication of the Government's response to the report.
The evidence is clear that the impact of problem debt upon the well-being of individuals and their families can be negative and long-lasting. However, the Welsh Government is doing all that it can to support people in Wales through the cost-of-living crisis that they are facing. On 16 November last year, I announced a £51 million package of support for low-income households to meet the immediate pressures of the cost-of-living crisis this winter.
We've talked a lot this afternoon about the winter fuel support scheme—£38 million for householders in receipt of means-tested benefits. Eligible households can claim a one-off £100 cash payment from their local authority to be used towards paying winter fuel bills. But I'm under no illusion that that payment will fully compensate households that lost over £1,000 a year when the £20 a week universal credit payment ended. However, it will help some keep their homes a little warmer this winter without building up fuel debt.
But we do have—as the Chair, Jenny Rathbone, has said—a tsunami, a perfect storm, of a cost-of-living crisis, which is now being expressed in terms of the clear evidence. We do know that people can recover from debt. What they need is access to free, quality, assured advice. That’s why the Welsh Government's long-standing commitment to funding advice services is so important.
It's rare that debt is the only problem that a person will have. It makes no sense to tackle a person's debt if they also have a welfare benefit problem or a housing problem that's left unresolved. So, the Welsh Government's single advice fund offers integrated services, helping people to deal with their financial problems together with other social welfare problems, and it does ensure that services tackle the underlying causes of debt and helps people put their finances on a more sustainable footing.

Jane Hutt AC: And thank you for acknowledging the role and increasing workload, Sarah Murphy, that Citizens Advice and Shelter have experienced in Bridgend. That will be reflected across all constituencies here today across Wales. But it is important to see, and as Sioned Williams said, that this is an exacerbation of inequalities that we've seen as a result of the pandemic. And it's good to see a credit union branch opening in Kenfig Hill.
We know a lot of people are not claiming what they're entitled to. That's why our recently launched second national 'Claim what's yours' welfare benefit take-up campaign is important. Our first campaign helped people to claim over £650,000 of extra income. And I do want to build on the excellent communications campaign. Thank you for acknowledging it, Jenny Rathbone, in terms of that sort of different way of reaching out: social media. It's very important, as Jane Dodds has said, in terms of reaching that younger generation, the generation precariat who are so at risk, but also diminishing the stigma that has been so associated with debt and encouraging people to seek advice on their entitlements—that's the key point; it's their entitlements—before they escalate to a crisis.
And I know that debt owed to the public sector creditors, including local authorities, with council tax, is a growing concern. Heledd, you've mentioned that today, and I'm pleased that work is under way to review the council tax protocol for Wales. It's there in our response to your recommendation. It will include exploring how successful the protocol has been in supporting vulnerable debtors, and it's very good that you had this inquiry to look into this. I mean, during 2021, we provided £22.6 million to cover some of the shortfall in council tax income due to those lower collection rates, and we are assisting with losses and also help to fund for the additional demand that's coming forward for council tax reduction as a result of COVID as well.
So, it's important that we don't underestimate the financial challenges being faced by households due to the rising costs of their energy bills, and addressing energy costs through measures like the price cap sits outside devolved competence, but we are raising these issues with the UK Government. Julie James and I wrote to the Secretary of State, Kwasi Kwarteng, today; I'm sharing that letter so that you can see what we've been calling for. Our plan to tackle fuel poverty was published in March 2021 and there are 10 short-term actions to be delivered by March 2023. We are making progress on all of these. And, of course, the Warm Homes programme, and I've already mentioned 67,000 households benefiting from home energy efficiency measures. So, I do welcome the inquiry into fuel poverty—that direct focus—and the Warm Homes programme that you'll shortly be holding. And please do share any emerging themes with us as you move through that inquiry.
Accessing high-interest credit is another key contributor to being in problem debt, as you've raised, yet many people believe they have no alternative other than borrowing from a high-cost lender. It is therefore important that we encourage people to access credit unions, and that's why I've made £60,000 available for credit unions to promote their services throughout Wales this winter.
Finally, inequalities in our society have been exacerbated by the pandemic, compounded by the inaction of the UK Government to address the very real and very grave cost-of-living crisis. The financial pressures that face households across Wales will now intensify, due to the combined impact of UK Government policy decisions to end the universal credit uplift and significant cost of living increases. And, yes, there is, Altaf Hussain, a clear link between health inequalities and debt. The costs of food and fuel are soaring and Senedd Members have made powerful contributions today.
So, in conclusion, I thank the committee for having the foresight to undertake this timely inquiry. I look forward to playing my part in making sure that the report's recommendations are implemented, as they will help shape and improve policy, and help prevent debt as well as support people in debt. This is a key issue for social justice and equality for this Welsh Government and for this Senedd and your committee, and your report will help Wales to respond effectively and robustly to tackle these deep income inequalities in Wales. Diolch.

I call on Jenny Rathbone to reply to the debate.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much indeed for all your very useful contributions. As Jane Dodds said, we've all been weathering the same COVID storm, but we've not been rowing in the same boat; I think that's a really useful allegory. I think it was particularly useful that Jane Dodds mentioned the debt bonfire issue and the legacy debts that really hang around people's necks. For example, Shelter highlighted that people who got into rent arrears years ago are still being prevented from getting back onto the social housing waiting list, and that's a really good example of how once in debt, it's very, very difficult for people on low incomes to get out of it. It's fine if you have very large debts, then the bank's wanting to give you some more, but that's not the case for the people we're looking at here.
Thank you, Altaf, for highlighting the link between financial health and mental health, and the disproportionate impact that this has on people's ability to function and to get themselves out of debt. Also, I think the important point you raised about how we really do need good information to understand the complexity of the debts that people are suffering, because the equalities data unit is going to really bring together all these issues so that we have a better understanding of the link, for example, between debt and the age or the status of individuals, whether they're disabled, whether they're young, the type of accommodation they're in. So, I think that's a very important point that I'm sure the Minister will be taking a very close interest in.
As Altaf said, people expect all Governments to act, whether it's the UK Government or the Welsh Government, and they don't expect people to be bystanders in such a crisis. And turning to what Sioned said, that all the problems that people already had, they were already indebted before the pandemic, but this has been exacerbated by the pandemic, highlighting the fact that we could be facing Victorian levels of poverty, which is very, very scary. So, problem debt increases the inequalities that already exist in our society, and being in one of the richest countries in the world and seeing people having to cut items of food in order to heat their home is really unacceptable.
I think that Sarah Murphy gave us also some very useful particular instances of how the pandemic and the debt crisis are affecting people in her own constituency, and it's very important to look at it in the granular detail that she has done. I think the description of the people who couldn't even go to the newsagent to top up their prepayment cards—they had to appeal to the charity of the energy companies to send them some energy credits, so that they could keep the lights on and have some heating, and just worry about the cost later. I think Sarah also mentioned the important role that credit unions can play and the fact that there are no third-party shareholders; they look at people as human beings, and the money that they are handling, it keeps circulating in local communities. These are really important points about the foundational economy.

You need to conclude now.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Okay. I thank you, Heledd, particularly, as you weren't part of the inquiry, for your points about council tax and the important role that we collectively have to play to ensure that public bodies aren't making the problems worse, and also ensuring that we cut the role of bailiffs harassing people in difficult circumstances.
I think the Minister made it abundantly clear in her response that she takes very seriously the work that we have set out in front of us, and the work we all face in responding effectively to this unprecedented debt crisis occasioned by so many different issues. And I'm sure we will be coming back to this in the future.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Health inequalities

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Item 7 today is the Plaid Cymru debate on health inequalities. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Motion NDM7877 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the prevailing deep health inequalities that exist in Wales.
2. Further notes that due to these inequalities the COVID-19 pandemic has had a disproportionate impact on many individuals, families, and communities across Wales.
3. Calls for a strategy and action plan to tackle health inequalities in Wales.

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Llywydd. We are facing a health crisis: a crisis that is putting lives at risk, which kills; a crisis that means that the vulnerable face the greatest threat; and a crisis that we should all be desperate, some day soon, hopefully, to put behind us. And, no, I am not talking about the pandemic. I am talking about the health inequalities that exist within Wales. The pandemic is relevant because those inequalities have meant that the pandemic has hit some harder than others. And we could have anticipated that because time and time again some communities, some groups and some individuals suffer more than others. But that is not inevitable. And I'm pleased to formally move this motion that calls for a strategy and a clear action plan to tackle those inequalities.
I will explain immediately why we will reject the Government amendment: the Government deletes the call for a strategy in its amendment and the call for an action plan. It calls for us rather to acknowledge what the Government is already doing, as if that were enough. But the whole purpose of this debate, which is the result of co-operation between Plaid Cymru and a number of medical, health and care bodies and organisations, is to try and wake up the Senedd and the Government to the reality that any measures currently in place—and, of course, there are measures in places—are totally inadequate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Health inequalities include many different factors. We're talking about differences in life expectancy—healthy life expectancy—and difference in access to healthcare. We're talking about the differing levels of prevalence of long-term health conditions, physical and mental, and differences between who—well, it could be along socioeconomic lines where poverty drives so many health problems; it could be geographic even and geographic differences in access to care, including between rural and urban areas. Experiences can differ along the lines of ethnic backgrounds as they often, often do, and according to physical ability. This isn't a uniform phenomenon. And it's about the inverse care law, isn't it, described for the first time by Dr Julian Tudor Hart just over 50 years ago, meaning those who most need care are least likely to be able to access it.
The scale of the challenge, the complexity of how we deal with all these inequalities is huge—frighteningly so—but that can't allow us to shy away from addressing those challenges. Indeed, there can be nothing other than to look at those challenges that could do more to spur us on to try to get to grips with the situation. Our health and care services, we know, right now, face enormous challenges. Levels of ill health made worse, of course, by the current pandemic mean that our fragile services are bursting at the seams. And we can't just say, 'Well, this is the hand we've been dealt; this is just how it is. People become unwell and our services then deal with that.' We potentially have an enormous amount of control over the cards that we ourselves hold. As the World Health Organization said in a report 30 years ago now, these inequalities are socially produced, and therefore modifiable. This is taking the preventative to its ultimate degree, if you like—not just working with individuals or families to try to promote good health and to help steer people away from as many risks as possible, but rather, taking a systemic preventative agenda, looking at all those issues that mean we are not a healthy nation, and importantly, crucially, that the burden of that ill health is not evenly shared between us.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Over the next hour, we will hear a number of examples of inequalities from my fellow Members as we try and paint a picture of the challenge that we are facing. The fact that so many different organisations have come together to push for a strategy tells us so much. And I'm grateful to many of them for their direct collaboration in preparing for today's debate. The Royal College of Psychiatrists argue that mental health is closely linked to many forms of inequality, including a lower standard of life, poorer health outcomes and early death. Platfform, the mental health charity, emphasised further that mental health is related to all sorts of inequalities. Depression is twice as prevalent among low-income groups. People who go hungry, who are in debt, or who live in low-quality housing are far more likely to suffer poor mental health. The British Heart Foundation Cymru underlines that systemic inequalities that previously existed have been exacerbated by the pandemic, and reflect a recent campaign by them—a campaign that I support—saying that women still face great disadvantage at every stage of their journey with heart disease.
I am also grateful for the input of the Royal College of Physicians. They also emphasise how the pandemic has exacerbated inequalities and has demonstrated clearly the link between poverty and poor health outcomes. We know, incidentally, that the death rate in the most disadvantaged areas of Wales in this pandemic has been almost twice as high as that of more affluent areas. One in three people who needed intensive care treatment came from a BAME background. But what the Royal College of Physicians tells us, in looking at inequalities more broadly, is that we, for too long, have looked to the NHS to respond to the challenges that we face with public health. But of course, the NHS alone doesn't have the levers, as they describe it, to make the kind of changes that are required to create the necessary conditions to promote good health. To quote them:

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 'Meaningful progress will require coherent efforts across all sectors to close the gap.'
They suggest what a strategy—the kind that we're calling for today—could look like, what a cross-Government response could look like. It should define 'health equality' and what exactly success would look like. It should provide clear, measurable targets and outcomes with a defined timescale. It should bring together existing work on inequalities from across Government departments, because, as I say, there is work going on, of course. It should define the kind of collaboration needed across Wales with many, many partners involved to bring about the change that we need. And, of course, it must be underpinned by the necessary funding. And perhaps at that stage, I see any Minister wincing at the sheer scale of the challenge. But as we ponder how on earth we find the money to do it, consider the 2011 report from the Welsh Government itself, saying that the annual economic cost of dealing with the consequences of inequalities in health in Wales was estimated then to be between £3.2 billion and £4 billion.
In the recent strategy, 'A Healthier Wales', inequality, I think, if we're counting correctly, is only mentioned three times. Plaid Cymru wants to make a difference and the updated programme for government resulting from the co-operation agreement includes, I think, 11 mentions of the words 'equal', 'inequality' or 'inequalities', including a key promise to move to eliminate inequality in all its forms. And the most basic form of inequality—or to turn it on its head, the equality that we seek—has to be health, surely. And that's why, again, we say that the Government's amendment today, removing the call for a clear plan of action, is contrary to their own stated ambition. I'm afraid, Minister, words aren't enough in themselves.
Our own health as individuals is clearly the main ingredient in giving us the best possible quality of life, by a country mile. And translating that to a vision for the nation as a whole, while improving our levels of health overall across the board and making a particular effort to eradicate the inequalities, surely has to be at the heart of creating the better Wales that we all should strive for. I look forward to today's debate.

I have selected the amendment to the motion and I call on the Minister for health to formally move the amendment—Eluned Morgan.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all after point 2 and replace with:
Acknowledges the causes of health inequality are multifaceted and require an integrated and cross-government approach.
Further acknowledges the significant commitments set out within the Programme for Government across all areas of government activity designed to tackle health inequalities in Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Formally.

Russell George AC: Can I thank Plaid for bringing forward this debate this afternoon? I think it's a very worthy use of time this afternoon to be debating this topic. We haven't put forward any amendments to this motion tabled by Siân Gwenllian, because we agree with the motion as it's been tabled. We're not minded to support the Government's amendment, because it deletes important points of the Plaid motion, as Rhun ap Iorwerth has pointed out.
I wanted to use my time in this contribution to talk about some of the work of the Health and Social Care Committee's inquiry, which we launched just this week, actually. Our piece of work is focusing on mental health inequalities across different groups in society. We made a point, really, of not revisiting, perhaps, some of the other good work that's been done by previous committees; we don't want to repeat work that's been done. So, we're focusing particularly on the inequality aspects of mental health. The inquiry will focus very much on those who are disproportionately affected and look at what the barriers are that exist to accessing mental health services. The inquiry will also look at the extent to which Welsh Government policy recognises and addresses the mental health needs of particular groups.
I was very interested in the work of the Centre for Mental Health, which works in conjunction with a number of other bodies as well. They refer to the triple barrier. Particularly, when they're referring to the triple barrier, they're talking about the disproportionate risk that people have due to the inequalities generally in society. But secondly, and perhaps most importantly, groups with particularly high levels of poor mental health can have the most difficulty accessing services, and when they do get support, their experiences and outcomes are often poorer. So, as a committee, the work that we've launched this week—we'll ask for some written evidence first and listen to oral evidence later in the year, but we do want to get to the bottom of mental health inequalities across Wales. I don't think it is right, of course—and I'm sure we can all agree—that people in society are disproportionately at risk and struggle, just because they're in a particular category.
We know, for example, that children from the poorest 20 per cent of households are four times more likely to have serious mental health difficulties by the age of 11 as those from the wealthiest 20 per cent. Other groups affected as well are older people—85 per cent of older people with depression receive no help from the NHS, according to the study that the mental health centre has undertaken. On autism, 70 per cent of children or 80 per cent of adults with autism have at least one co-occurring mental health condition, and one particularly disturbing statistic is that children with autism are 28 times more likely to think about or attempt suicide.
Deaf people are twice as likely to experience mental health difficulties, and those with learning difficulties are three times more likely than average to have a mental health problem occurring as well. So, we do want to hear the experiences through this piece of work from real situations. We want to try and get the voice of those who are often unrepresented in society and use those experiences. I hope as a committee that we can make recommendations that help set a direction for the Welsh Government in terms of policy on mental health. So, diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to take part in this debate this afternoon.

Mike Hedges AC: Health inequality has been known for over 50 years, when Dr Julian Tudor Hart wrote an article in The Lancet on the inverse care law. The inverse care law is the principle that the availability of good medical or social care tends to vary inversely with the need of the population served. He said:
'In areas with most sickness and death, general practitioners have more work, larger lists, less hospital support, and inherit more clinically ineffective traditions of consultation, than in the healthiest areas; and hospital doctors shoulder heavier case-loads with less staff and equipment, more obsolete buildings, and suffer recurrent crises in the availability of beds and replacement staff.'
Has it changed? As Frank Dobson put it when he was Secretary of State for Health,
'Inequality in health is the worst inequality of all. There is no more serious inequality than knowing that you’ll die sooner because you’re badly off.'
Then there's a social gradient in lifespan. People living in the most deprived areas in England and Wales have an average life expectancy of about nine fewer years than those in more affluent ones for men, and seven for women. Men and women living in the most deprived areas can expect nearly 20 fewer years in good health. So, people not only die younger but are ill for a larger period of their life. If I were living now in the area I went to school, the likelihood is, as a man of over 60 years of age, it would be over 50 per cent that I would be suffering from serious ill health. Almost half the gap in life expectancy between the two areas is due to excess deaths from heart disease, stroke and cancer.
As well as lower life expectancy, there's a higher prevalence of many behavioural risk factors among the most deprived areas compared with the less deprived areas. These health inequalities are underpinned by inequalities of both social and economic circumstances that influence health. Health cannot be looked at on its own. The unequal distribution of the social determinants of health, such as education, housing and employment, drives inequality in physical and mental health, reducing individuals' ability to prevent sickness or to take action and access treatment when ill health occurs. People cannot afford to stay home from work when they are ill because the effect it has on their income. That has a serious effect on their life expectancy in the long run, but it certainly affects them very badly in the short term.
These inequalities are complex; they are embedded in society. But they're also preventable. The dimensions of inequality are complex and overlapping, as is representing the overlapping dimensions of health inequality. Health inequalities such as deprivation, low income and poor housing have always meant poorer health, reduced quality of life and early death for many people. The COVID-19 pandemic has starkly exposed how these existing inequalities and the interconnection between them, such as race, gender and geography, are associated with an increased risk of becoming ill with a disease such as COVID-19. But it would be true of any pandemic.
The link between poor housing and poor health is well established. Clement Attlee created a ministry of health and housing under Nye Bevan. Unfortunately for me, no Labour leader since has managed to join the two together. The Labour Party has a strong and proud record of providing good-quality social housing, and this leads to improved health for the residents of these properties. But we also have people living in cold, damp and unsuitable privately rented accommodation. Is it any surprise that they have poor health and many children have poor educational outcomes?
Homelessness has a huge impact on a person's physical health. Sleeping rough makes it difficult to get good-quality sleep, maintain an adequate and healthy diet, stay clean and take medical treatment. It's not surprising that research by University College London discovered at least one third of homeless people have died from readily treatable conditions, and almost all of them died young.
Many studies have found a direct link between good health and interaction with the natural environment, with stress lowered, obesity rates lessened and concentration improved. Health inequality is just another manifestation of poverty: poor diet, poor-quality housing, inadequately heated housing, lack of interaction with the natural environment, lack of exercise, and continually worrying about money inevitably producing less good health outcomes and early death.
Can I just finish by talking about worrying about money? I think it comes as a shock to most of the people in the Senedd, but there are large numbers of my constituents who daily worry about the amount of money they've got and how they're going to pay their bills. They live throughout my constituency, and I think that, really, it's about taking that stress away. I remember once saying that if I was in that situation of not knowing how I was going to feed my children, if I didn't know how I was going to pay my rent, I would be depressed as well, and it seems mental health is driven by the fact that people are poor. So, let's deal with the real cause of it, which is poverty and poor housing, and if we can deal with those, then we can improve health and health outcomes.

Heledd Fychan AS: Health inequality is not new in Wales, though the pandemic has highlighted this inequality and exacerbated the situation for many constituents living in my region, reflected in the high level of deaths from COVID in Rhondda Cynon Taf. It has not created this inequality, and it is clear that more should have been done long before the pandemic to tackle this.
Obviously, austerity has not helped either. Research shows that austerity measures, which include reducing social spending and increasing taxation, hurt deprived groups the most. They increase the risk of unemployment, poverty, homelessness and other socioeconomic risk factors, while cutting effective social protection programmes that mitigate risks to health.
Austerity also has consequences for health and health services. It impacts most on those already vulnerable, such as those with precarious employment or housing, or with existing health problems. It is associated with worsening mental health and, as a consequence, an increase in suicides. Yet, this is not an inevitable consequence at a time of economic crisis, as evidenced from the research into those fortunate to live in countries with strong social protection systems, such as Iceland and Germany.
In 2015 the UK experienced the largest annual rise in the mortality rate for 50 years, and the number of deaths in the UK has been rising since 2011, apart from a recovery in 2014, after a steady decline from the late 1970s onwards, and this rise has been particularly large amongst the elderly. Austerity measures, rather than economic hardship per se, appear to have played a role in this rising death rate. Analysis that examines changing patterns across local areas finds that cuts to social care and financial support to elderly pensioners are associated with the rise in mortality among those aged 85 years and over.
As I know from my personal experience in supporting communities still impacted by the devastating floods of 2020 as a result of storm Dennis, extreme weather and flooding are also likely to disproportionately affect those on low incomes, those with fewer resources to prepare, respond and recover from floods or other extreme weather events, and those less likely to be fully insured against damages to property from such extreme weather events. Damp mould in properties as a result of flooding poses a significant risk to health. However, many of those on low incomes simply cannot afford to fix the problem, meaning many continue to face significant risks to their health, due to the ongoing and worsening effects of climate change.
As one of the Senedd's clean air clean champions, I also want to highlight the issue of air quality and how this also disproportionately affects those on low incomes. It's worth bearing in mind that it's children in low-income households that are worst affected by air-quality issues. Air pollutant concentrations are currently higher in areas of socioeconomic disadvantage, meaning that those on low incomes tend to be worst affected by health problems related to poor air quality. We've heard from other contributions already the gap and difference in life expectancy with the least and most deprived areas in Wales, with 8.9 years for males and 7.4 years for females. And further, the proportion of total deaths in 2019 that were avoidable in Wales continued to be substantially larger in the most deprived areas, compared with the least deprived areas. Cwm Taf has the lowest healthy life expectancy at 61.2 for men and 62.6 for women, compared with 67.6 for men and 69.2 for women in the Betsi Cadwaladr area. That is a stark difference of between six and seven years of healthy life for constituents living in the region that I represent.
We can do more, we need to do more to end health inequality in Wales, and what we are proposing today is bringing together a plan to tackle health inequality. I hope Members from across the Chamber will support our motion.

Samuel Kurtz. Samuel Kurtz. Can I have Samuel Kurtz's microphone unmuted? 'Computer says no', Samuel.

Sam Rowlands MS: You've got the wrong Sam, sorry.

Oh, it's the wrong Sam. Okay. We've got the right Sam. Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Llywydd. I'll start by thanking Plaid Cymru for bringing this debate forward this afternoon.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'd like to use my contribution to draw Members' attention to the ongoing health inequalities in rural Wales, by highlighting examples within my own constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, in particular those inequalities that have arisen as a consequence of the COVID-19 pandemic and the reorganisation of vital health services.
Just last week it was announced that Hywel Dda University Local Health Board had reallocated services across west Wales to the Prince Philip Hospital in Llanelli, an effort to sustain vital NHS cancer services throughout the current stage of the pandemic. Whilst this temporary prioritisation is largely welcomed, it does raise important questions about the future of services in west Wales. A resident from the village of Angle, the furthest point west in my constituency, has roughly a 46-mile round trip to attend Withybush hospital in Haverfordwest, or an 86-mile round trip to attend an appointment in Glangwili hospital. Under the temporary service, a resident of Angle will now have to travel a total of 122 miles to and from Prince Philip Hospital. This is difficult at the best of times, but is made even more frustrating by a fundamental lack of public transport infrastructure. With this example alone, you can see how counter-productive it would be to channel resources away from Glangwili or, indeed, Withybush hospital, in my colleague Paul Davies's constituency of Preseli Pembrokeshire, to Prince Philip Hospital in Llanelli.
Over the last 20 years, we have consistently seen hospital services based in Withybush and Glangwili hived off to the east. For the last four years, Welsh Government have dangled the carrot of a new hospital being built on the Pembrokeshire-Carmarthenshire border, but the site and the funding for this project still remains a mystery. Minister, we will be lucky to see a new hospital built before the end of this Senedd term in 2026. My constituents are becoming understandably concerned that the erosion of health services out of Pembrokeshire and west Carmarthenshire are only moving in one direction: eastwards. Time and time again, Minister, we've been told, and colleagues of mine, that services would not be reduced until a new hospital was in place, yet services are systematically being run down and exasperating health inequalities for those who use them. If you combine this with west Wales's poor ambulance waiting times and the distance it actually takes to reach a hospital in an emergency, you then have the perfect storm for a front-line services crisis. And it is residents in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire that will be forced to suffer. That is why it's imperative that these services return to their usual points of delivery as soon as possible. Diolch.

Delyth Jewell AC: Well, as we've already heard, health inequalities are as a rule symptomatic of other inequalities, with income usually the main factor. According to Public Health Wales, as Mike Hedges and others have referred to, people in the poorest areas of Wales live healthy lives for 18 years less than people in more prosperous areas, and people in those poorest areas are 23 per cent more likely to experience cancer, and 48 per cent more likely to die as a result of illness. And with mental health too, Rhun ap Iorwerth has referred to the fact that the charity Platfform has demonstrated that depression is twice as prevalent among low-income groups, and that those who are short of money and food are more likely to suffer mental health problems. The same pattern can be seen in relation to serious mental health problems, with those on the lowest wrung of the socioeconomic ladder eight times more likely to be diagnosed with schizophrenia.
So, material inequalities lead to a vicious circle of other inequalities. It's also true of race inequalities in Wales. We know that people from ethnic minorities receive 7.5 per cent less income on average than white people, and that income inequality leaves them more exposed to illness, including COVID. The same is true of housing in Wales, as we've already heard. The Welsh Government, when they commence the work of rebuilding society post COVID, must prioritise breaking this vicious circle, so that opportunities are shared more equally. The best way of improving the general standard of living is to start from the bottom up, because that's where the need is greatest.
So, I urge Members to support the Plaid Cymru motion today, which calls for a specific strategy to tackle health inequalities, and to reject the Government amendment that supports retaining the status quo. It's crucial that this happens as soon as possible as we face an energy-price crisis that will have an appalling impact on people already struggling to make ends meet. According to the Marmot report, around 10 per cent of excess winter deaths are the result of fuel poverty, and therefore it's crucial that there is real action on the problem between now and next winter, if not sooner.
I'd like to conclude by talking about another factor that drives inequality, namely geographical inequality. The Marmot report on health inequalities in England looked at this too, noting that geography plays a huge part in health outcomes. The truth is that the south Wales Valleys communities are still suffering the impact of mine closures in the 1980s. It's staggering to think that people in Valleys communities continue to face low incomes, and the poor health outcomes that come as a result of that, 33 years after the last pits, Cwm and Oakdale, were closed. It's almost as many years as I've been on this earth. What a political failure we see there. The people living in these post-industrial areas still suffer industrial illnesses, and the rates of other health problems remain high because of their economic conditions, and unemployment remains a serious problem.
The Sheffield Hallam report on the economic and social situation of the impact of pit closures in England and Wales reported in 2019 that health problems were a curse in these areas, with almost 10 per cent receiving health-related welfare payments and the number of jobs available so low. It's about time to have a Welsh Government that's serious about bringing back economic rejuvenation in the Valleys. Unless there are no signs of this by the end of this term, the question this Labour Government will need to ask itself is whether it's their failings that's responsible for the lack of progress, because if that's not the case, then the only other explanation is that all of this stems from being part of a United Kingdom that has inequality at its very core, and that that is what is preventing these communities from delivering their potential.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm very grateful to be able to speak in today's debate, and I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for bringing this forward, and I put my comments in line with the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee as well.
If I may, I'd like to focus my comments, following a recent discussion with the Royal College of Occupational Therapists. The Royal College of Occupational Therapists have recently launched a report, 'Bridge to Recovery', and they are calling for fair access to occupational therapy expertise. This access, Llywydd, should be open, it should be appropriate, and fair to the population groups who have been known to experience reduced access to healthcare and services. I won't go through and repeat those groups we've already heard by many this afternoon.
But Llywydd, sadly, the COVID-19 pandemic has exacerbated the impact of already existing health inequalities in my constituency and constituencies across Wales. The necessary lockdowns and measures we had to put in place to protect public health have also led to an increase in loneliness, an increase in isolation, an increase in substance misuse and domestic violence, and, if we look at those issues, it was particularly for those who were shielding.
Now, as has been mentioned before today, this has resulted in an increase and an urgent need for urgent mental health support in primary care. Very early in the first lockdown, Llywydd, the occupational therapy service in north Wales proactively stepped forward and proactively acted to support primary care, reaching out to those who were shielding. This quickly grew into supporting individuals presenting at primary care with common mental health concerns. From this, a co-production project developed, linking occupational therapy services with the iCAN programme, an established programme led by mental health services in north Wales.
The iCAN programme offered easier, earlier access to prevent and mitigate health inequalities, and I commend the iCAN programme and the co-production of that programme to this Senedd, and I also urge members of the health committee, and those off the health committee, to look at the report and its positive evaluation.
However, Llywydd, from these positive steps there is still an issue. Occupational therapy is still predominantly accessed through secondary and tertiary services, and it tends to focus on individuals rather than on populations. Access to occupational therapy services needs to be early, it needs to be easy, it needs to be across the lifespan, preventing the development of long-term difficulties and addressing some of the wider social detriments of health we already heard this evening. Services should be both universal, across all aspects of life, and targeted, shaped and placed according to the needs of the local population groups.
Llywydd, I wish to see good practices like projects such as the iCAN project in north Wales replicated across the whole of Wales, and I urge Members to take part, and organisations to take part, in the Health and Social Care Committee's upcoming committee inquiry, an important step forward for health inequality in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Gareth Davies AS: It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon, and I've got no problem supporting the motion as it stands this afternoon.
According to the World Health Organization, there is ample evidence that social factors such as education, employment status, income level and gender and ethnicity have a marked influence on how healthy a person is. In all countries, whether low, middle or high income, there are wide disparities in the health status of different social groups. The lower a person's socioeconomic position, the higher their risk of poor health.
Sadly, there is ample evidence of this in my own constituency. The Vale of Clwyd is home to some of the poorest wards in Wales, if not the entire United Kingdom. It has one of the lowest life expectancy rates for men, one of the highest rates of premature death from non-communicable disease, and there are incredibly high rates of cardiovascular deaths as well as high prevalence of diabetes. One out of every 16 adults is on long-term sickness or disabled and economically inactive.
Economic inactivity amongst those not battling long-term illness isn't much better. Nearly a quarter of the adult population are economically inactive, so it's little wonder that health inequalities are so prevalent. Governments are supposed to ensure that their citizens are healthy, supposed to lift them from poverty, supposed to improve their life chances, and this Welsh Government has failed on all counts. It's been Welsh Labour, propped up by Plaid Cymru and/or the Liberal Democrats, that have run Wales for over two decades. And during that time, our economy has remained stagnant.
In my constituency, gross value addedhas increased. It has gone from 59.8 per cent of UK GVA to 60.2 per cent—not even half of 1 per cent in over 20 years. So, it's little more than a statistical rounding error. While our economy remained flat, my constituents got poorer and, as a result, sicker. Many of my constituents can't afford to eat healthily. One in five adults are likely to have not eaten their recommended five a day, and it's not surprising therefore that the number of people waiting for hospital treatment has doubled in the last decade. Health spending has also doubled during that time. We now spend over half the Welsh budget on health and care, so what happened to treating the disease and not the symptoms? If the Welsh Government focused on removinghealth inequalities, we would not need to spend ever-increasing amounts on the NHS. We have to ensure our population has access to well-paying jobs and good-quality housing if we are to have any hope of tackling long-term sickness.
There have been so many wasted opportunities to tackle this issue. The Welsh Government promised to raise the GVA of Wales to within 10 per cent of the UK average, and then dropped their pledge before it was broken. They wasted structural funds on vanity projects. And I can only hope, for the sake of my constituents, that they will take a leaf from the UK Government's book and the levelling-up agenda, as my constituents are already benefitting from multiple schemes. But this is not a competition between nations. The Welsh Government has to put aside party politics and petty nationalism and work with the Governments across the UK to raise our citizens out of poverty and tackle health inequalities head-on and for good. Diolch.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this debate.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: There exist huge inequalities in wealth and health in our society. I don't believe that anyone taking part in this debate could claim otherwise, but I would be delighted to show them around some of the communities in my region of South Wales East if they need further convincing. The pandemic over the last two years has amplified these differences that already existed, exacerbated by more than a decade of Westminster austerity. As we have seen this week, with news of yet another lockdown-busting party in 10 Downing Street, the privileged few seem to be living by a different set of rules. There is also a gulf between the wealthy and those in poverty when it comes to health outcomes. Dr Ciarán Humphreys, a consultant in public health on the wider determinants of health at Public Health Wales has said, and I quote:
'Many conditions contribute to the gap in life expectancy between the least and most disadvantaged communities. This shows that we must look beyond simple medical explanations to the root causes and to the wider conditions in which people live.'
We could improve these inequalities through a greater focus on community-based early intervention that is universal but especially targeted at those most in need. We are all familiar with the health backlog created by the pandemic, but, if timely access to primary health services improve, the need for hospital care can be reduced. This would also drive down healthcare costs by reducing the pressure on A&E. People on low incomes and those living in deprived areas often consume a less healthy diet and are therefore more likely to experience the adverse health outcomes associated with poor diet. Unfortunately, affordable healthy food options are often not easy to come by in many of our communities. The Welsh food poverty network noted in 2020 that not having enough money to reach affordable food shops or access a nutritionally balanced diet is now a common reality for many people in Wales. This is why I'm proud that Plaid Cymru has secured free school meals for all primary school children as part of the co-operation agreement. The security of a decent nutritious meal made with local produce for all young children in Wales will go some way to reducing the health inequalities associated with food and dietary practices.
I also want to talk about some sections of our society that are digitally excluded. Digital exclusion is often linked with poverty. It is also linked with age, with many older people unable to access the internet, for whatever reason. This is something I wrote about last October on the United Nations International Day of Older Persons. With so many essential services now being offered and run online, we cannot afford to leave such large sections of society disenfranchised by technology. As GP services move more and more online, I hope the Government redoubles its efforts to ensure that people are not left out on account of their age or their income levels.
Finally, I wish to mention dementia. As the Plaid Cymru spokesperson for older people, this is an issue that is close to my heart. The rights of people with dementia have also been in the news in recent days, thanks to my Plaid Cymru colleague, Liz Saville Roberts. She spoke passionately in the House of Commons about the need to end the isolation and separation of people with dementia in care homes and hospitals. As Liz herself said:
'The Welsh Government has a respectable policy text in place with our dementia action plan for Wales 2018-2022. But there is a yawning chasm of a gap between what it describes and the reality of what is happening in our hospitals and care homes, in both Wales and England.'
End of quote. There should be more awareness that an individual's risk of developing dementia can be significantly determined by a number of factors. Health inequalities have become a vital component as we learn more about the potential for reducing the possibility of developing dementia. Consideration of health inequalities should feed into dementia care plans, as well as dementia risk reduction, and I would like to hear from the Government today how that is happening in the here and now. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Sarah Murphy AS: This debate presents a timely opportunity to discuss the anxiety caused by the recent announcement of changes to cervical screening by Public Health Wales and explore it within its wider context. I appreciate that Public Health Wales has acknowledged that the announcement should have been dealt with better, and that Cancer Research UK has said that, whilst the announcement made the headlines, the story had a lot more to it than meets the eye. The new programme, in fact, provides more opportunities to spot symptoms in people who are at a greater risk of developing cervical cancer.
This led me to question why a decision made by Public Health Wales, backed by the evidence of scientists and researchers, had caused so much fear and anger in our communities. And I think the social media comments that I had from women were very honest and revealing. Sarah told me, 'It's such a shame that none of this was explained. Women's health is really struggling more than ever. I have had difficulty in even getting birth control. This is now another thing to make women feel anxious about their health.' It reinforced to me that we cannot shy away from the wider context of health inequalities that are deep-rooted within our systems.
And it is my belief that we cannot begin to discuss health inequalities without addressing the fact that medicine and research have predominantly been explored and developed through the vision of white men. We know this from both our history and everyday experiences, from sexual health and birth control to certain cancers and diseases. The politics of agency to address healthcare has historically been through the decision making and priorities of men. Women have told me that it is no wonder then that a decision such as that on cervical screening is met with concerns, when historically what we have known is that those without a cervix have made the decision for those whose lives were at stake. Although this is starting to change, I think extra effort must always be made to engage and listen to women.
In my brief time as MS for Bridgend and Porthcawl, I have spoken to constituents about their experiences of the barriers faced by people seeking diagnosis and treatment for diseases such as endometriosis and polycystic ovary syndrome, or the fact that menopause remains an under-invested area of research for the ongoing experiences of people facing the effects and symptoms, or the horrifying statistics identifying that people from ethnic minority communities are more likely to die from childbirth than white people in the UK. We have so much to do to unpick the systemic inequalities, inequality that has seen women, ethnic minority communities and queer and trans folk in the background, rather than leading on the research that affects their own bodies and lives, which is why I support the amendment today that acknowledges the causes of health inequality are multifaceted and part of a wider context of structural inequality.
I know that our health Minister has already been doing a lot of work to address this, and I'd welcome hearing more about this work today. I also acknowledge that the First Minister did address the cervical cancer screening changes yesterday, and that we will be having a debate on it next week, but I do feel that we need to grab every opportunity to address this, because there are a lot of women out there who have been left very scared.

The Minister for Health and Social Services to contribute. Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'd like to begin my contribution by thanking Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this really important topic for debate today. Since my appointment, I have been absolutely clear that reducing health inequalities is one of my key priorities as a Minister. The links between where you live, your socioeconomic status, your life expectancy and how many years you can expect to live healthily are well-known and have been revealed by many Senedd Members today.
We know, as so many have stated, that people from the most deprived areas of Wales are more likely to live shorter lives than those in the least deprived, and that, sadly, they live fewer of those years in good health. I'm sure that all of us in the Senedd can agree that the fact that this continues to be a reality across Wales today is socially unjust, and it's something that this Welsh Government is absolutely determined to put right.
It's important to be clear that we are not starting this work from scratch. Over many years, we have worked to build a solid legislative and policy context to ensure that tackling health inequalities is hard-wired into the way that we plan and deliver public services in Wales. I think that one of the best examples of this work includes embedding the use of health impact assessments across Government and, through this Senedd, legislating to cast a healthier Wales and a more equal Wales as statutory goals in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.
We have been proud to share our approach to tackling health inequalities through the framework of the Act internationally, as a lead partner of the recent joint action on health equity in Europe. This joint action saw 25 countries work collaboratively to address health inequalities. Members may also be aware that my predecessor signed a memorandum of understanding on health equity with the World Health Organization Europe region in 2020. Through our work with the WHO, Wales has established a Welsh health equity status report initiative and has become a global influencer and a live innovation site for health equity.
Now, in addition to establishing the right policy and legislative context, the Welsh Government has developed a number of key programmes to tackle inequalities, such as our flagship Flying Start programme. Flying Start reaches around 36,000 children under four years of age who are living in some of the most deprived areas across Wales. It works to ensure that they have the best possible start in life, which we all know is critical in terms of the window of opportunity to influence development and those longer term outcomes.
But despite the strides that we have made, COVID-19 has brought the true impact of health inequalities into sharp focus.

Can I just say that I think that I have an intervention request from Jenny Rathbone? Yes, I do. If you are willing to take the intervention request, Minister—.

Eluned Morgan AC: Of course.

Good. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much indeed. I am delighted to hear you highlight the importance of Flying Start, but also the really important role of midwives and health visitors, who can really change the dial when people become pregnant and have these very, very young children. Everybody wants to do the right thing for their child when they are first born, and so I look forward to hearing how the enhanced Flying Start programme is really going to drive the agenda on this, so that we have all the next generation eating healthily, doing the right amount of exercise and looking after their mental health.

Minister.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Jenny, and you are absolutely right: I think that midwives are very key, and health visitors are key, particularly in those early years. I think that we have got to take every opportunity to make every contact count, to make sure—. We know that we are managing to vaccinate children—about 90 to 95 per cent of children come for vaccination—but what an opportunity to talk to them about how to make sure that your child is developing properly, eating the right food, and making sure that they are getting the right exercise. I think that there is room to be more creative in that space, and that's certainly something that I've been talking to my officials about—how we can make sure that every contact counts.
But, as mentioned, I think COVID-19 has been cruel and it's been unequal in the way that it's affected our population, with all the more vulnerable people with pre-existing health conditions, such as obesity, being at far greater risk of severe disease. In this sense, COVID-19 has highlighted even further the crucial importance of public health prevention work in tackling health inequalities. So, we know, don't we, that obesity and smoking have an enormous impact on people's life expectancy and healthy life expectancy, and that people who are from those most deprived communities are more likely to be obese or to smoke than those in the least deprived communities. And that's why tackling health inequalities is at the core of our proposals to tackle obesity and to support people to stop smoking. So, alongside my colleague the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, we're committing over £13 million of funding to our forthcoming 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' programme to tackle obesity, with actions to reduce diet and health inequalities across the population at its core. And on smoking, Members may be aware that we recently published our draft tobacco control strategy for Wales for consultation, and in recognition of the health inequalities that arise as a result of smoking, tackling inequality is noted as one of the draft strategy's central themes.

Eluned Morgan AC: Now, I'm determined to ensure that we make all possible efforts across my portfolio to tackle health inequalities. That's why I've been clear with officials that we must redouble our efforts across health and social services, and across health services in Wales, to ensure that tackling health inequalities is an integral part of the post-COVID-19 recovery.
Now, as we consider how broad the factors are that impact on people's health—and many of those have been listed today—our work on health inequalities has to be broader than simply working on health and care services alone in order to have the necessary impact. And we must take action on health inequalities as a golden thread across all policies and strategies of Government, because they all have the potential to impact people's health—from our childcare offer and measures to improve air quality, to the quality of housing and the ability of people to heat their homes. But I do think that it's important, given the breadth of the factors that have an impact on people's health, that we must recognise that there are some areas beyond the competence of the Senedd, such as welfare. So, we do have to work together in an integrated way in order to ensure that we all contribute as much as possible to tackling health inequalities.
From the Government's perspective, our programme for government includes significant commitments across all our work areas that are planned to tackle health inequalities here in Wales. And in addition to that, during this Senedd term, we will be bringing forward regulations under the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 to make it a requirement for some public bodies to undertake health impact assessments in particular circumstances, in order to ensure that we take all opportunities to tackle these health inequalities.
Today's motion calls on the Welsh Government to develop a specific strategy on health inequalities. I'm afraid that I don't think that that is the right approach. I am determined to see action happening now, and we already have the legislative framework and regulations, such as the well-being of future generations Act and the socioeconomic duty, which has been implemented, to give us the tools to do those things that we know need to be done. With the tobacco control strategy, our LGBTQ+ action plan and our race equality action plan, which are all in the pipeline, the steps to address health inequalities are being incorporated across our ambitious plans for this Senedd term. And in order to ensure that we continue to focus on making a difference and on delivery, I do ask Members to support our amendment to today's motion. Thank you very much, Llywydd.

Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, and thank you to everyone who's participated in this afternoon's debate. I don't have much time. I appreciate the Minister's thanks to us for bringing this before the virtual Senedd today, but we're not doing so because we like talking about health inequalities; we are doing this because we believe action is required on those health inequalities, which are so deeply rooted within our society in Wales, unfortunately.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I really am grateful to Members from across the political parties for their contributions, and the sheer range of inequalities that have been put forward by everybody highlights, doesn't it, the scale of the problem that we face. I think the seriousness of the situation is reflected in the seriousness of the contributions that we have heard today from, I'd say, almost all Members, other than the Member for the Vale of Clwyd who decided to have a pop at those of us who have ambitions for Wales, whilst missing the irony that he was doing so by playing to a right-wing British nationalist audience, but there's always one. But we're calling today, aren't we, for clear action, a clear plan of action from Welsh Government? Nobody is denying—the Minister, certainly, is not denying that there are deeply ingrained inequalities in Wales.
What this motion today is doing is trying to get us to agree that dealing with those inequalities has to be a a joined-up affair. The Minister argued that dealing with inequalities is hard-wired into the Government's thinking, but I'm seeing a loose connection. Whilst the Government believes that it is already acting in a joined-up way, how is it that all these highly respected organisations, which are drawn together from all parts of the health and care spectrum, professionally and representing patients, how come they believe that we do not have a coherent strategy, and how come they believe that now is the time to put that strategy in place?
To Labour Members, in particular, who outlined eloquently the issues that you are seeing within your constituencies: use this opportunity to send a positive message to the Government that we need more; that, yes, there are positive things in what Government is already doing, but we need more and we need it to gel together. So, support our motion today, so that we don't have to look forward to generations again of talking about the inequalities that we have in Wales, because they do not need to be there, and we are in the privileged position of being able to take action to address them.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, I see an objection and, therefore, we will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

That brings us to voting time, so we'll take a very short break to make technical preparations for that vote.

Plenary was suspended at 17:29.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:32, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

8. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. The first vote is on the Plaid Cymru debate on health inequalities. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions and 27 against. And therefore, as required under Standing Order 6.20, I exercise my casting vote to vote against the motion. The result therefore is: in favour 27, no abstentions and 28 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru debate – Health inequalities - Motion without amendment: For: 27, Against: 27, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

We now move to a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote on amendment 1. Close the vote. In favour 27, one abstention and 26 against, and therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru debate - Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 27, Against: 26, Abstain: 1
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended by amendment 1.

Motion NDM7877 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the prevailing deep health inequalities that exist in Wales.
2. Further notes that due to these inequalities the COVID-19 pandemic has had a disproportionate impact on many individuals, families, and communities across Wales.
3. Acknowledges the causes of health inequality are multifaceted and require an integrated and cross-government approach.
4. Further acknowledges the significant commitments set out within the Programme for Government across all areas of government activity designed to tackle health inequalities in Wales.

Open the vote. In favour 27, one abstention and 26 against, therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru debate – Health inequalities - Motion as amended: For: 27, Against: 26, Abstain: 1
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting time this afternoon.

9. Short Debate: Deaf People Wales: Hidden Inequality

We now move to the short debate. Some of you may be leaving the meeting. I will pause briefly just to allow that to happen. I will now call the short debate, and Mark Isherwood is to move today's short debate. Over to you, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I've agreed to allow one minute for both Joel James and Jane Dodds to speak in this debate. Regrettably, I'm advised that it's not possible for this short debate to have live British Sign Language interpretation, not least due to the complexities of doing so under the current restrictions and in a fully virtual Plenary meeting. But it will be made available with British Sign Language interpretation after the debate in the same way as is done with First Minister's questions each week.
The report 'Deaf People Wales: Hidden Inequality', compiled by the all-Wales deaf mental health and well-being group, was launched at the 21 October meeting of the Senedd's cross-party group on deaf issues by one of the report's authors, Dr Julia Terry, associate professor of mental health and nursing at Swansea University, highlighting the challenges faced by deaf people in Wales who experience mental health problems and calling on the Welsh Government to make significant changes.
As the Chair of the cross-party group, I pledged to raise this report in the Senedd and welcome this opportunity to do so, in the hope that it may generate a positive response from the Welsh Government and help drive the change required.The report reveals that deaf people in Wales are experiencing significant mental health inequalities because there is a lack of accessible services, no specialist deaf mental health service in Wales and limited training about deaf issues for health and care workers.Issues raised by the report include: limited implementation of the all-Wales accessible information standards, meaning that deaf people still don't get information in ways that they can understand and engage with; aneed for an advice and signposting service for individuals, families, and staff; a knowledge gap because lots of health professionals do not know about deaf counselling services for deaf people that are provided by deaf people; and deaf people have to be admitted to Birmingham, London or Manchester specialist mental health wards for full access to communication in BSL for assessment and/or treatment. As Dr Julia Terry states,
'The mental health of Deaf people in Wales has been a neglected issue for decades. Deaf people are already at twice the risk of mental health problems and find it extremely difficult to get help as services rarely provide accessible information or culturally relevant services. If nothing changes, the mental health of Deaf people in Wales will continue to be at risk.'
The all-Wales deaf mental health and well-being group, which includes a wide range of experts working in this area and collaborated with deaf and hearing professionals to compile this report, aims to raise awareness within the Welsh Government and other relevant stakeholders and to recommend ways to improve mental health outcomes for deaf people in Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: A literature search was conducted, then data gathered from case studies from deaf people and British Sign Language interpreters, evaluations of mental health promotion initiatives involving deaf people, statistics from British Sign Language interpreting services and information from UK specialist deaf mental health services. Forty per cent of deaf people experience mental health problems—twice the level amongst people in hearing populations. Worryingly, the British Society for Mental Health and Deafness reported in 2020 that Wales is the only UK country that does not provide a clear pathway or service to meet the needs of deaf people experiencing poor mental health. The coronavirus pandemic has forced many people into poverty and mental health crisis, with the exclusions faced by deaf BSL users even more stark.
This report highlights findings that deaf people often experience limited access to healthcare, variations in access to education, negative societal attitudes and reduced opportunities regarding work and leisure. Many deaf people are not recorded as being deaf in their primary care records. If they're then referred to other health services, specific details that may impact on their health service experience are frequently not passed on and therefore unknown. In 2019, Public Health Wales commissioned a report to explore health behaviours and barriers experienced by deaf people in Wales and reported that access to health services is a major problem, and deaf people often avoid contact with health services due to poor past experiences. That was before the pandemic started. In 2010, the Welsh Government commissioned the RNID to investigate barriers to inclusion faced by deaf and hard-of-hearing people in Wales. Eighty-four per cent of deaf respondents highlighted that it was hard to use health services because there was limited provision for deaf people to use services in Wales, particularly health services. Despite the Assembly, as it then was, having recognised BSL as a language in its own right in 2006, there is still a shortage of BSL interpreters. On the national register of communication professionals working with deaf and deafblind people, only 48 individuals are registered as resident in Wales, with six at training level, below the target of 64 set by the Welsh Government.
The report highlights research showing that deaf children, particularly those born to hearing parents, are disadvantaged from birth, as they do not have access to the same education and health opportunities as their hearing peers; that potentially hearing parents might have had no experience of a visual language, such as BSL, nor have had any contact with deaf role models; that if parents and siblings can't use BSL, children are isolated and families struggle with communication; that there is little support or resource for the deaf child’s family to learn BSL; that deaf children do not have the opportunity for incidental learning opportunities, to ask questions, to pick up news, information or social capital that extends into education; that deaf people regularly experience isolation, discrimination and stress daily, which contributes to experiences of anxiety and depression; that deaf people persistently battle to access mental health services, with limited provision for them in Wales; that south Wales has no specialised deaf mental health network, and the service in north Wales has now been dissolved; that mostly deaf patients requiring in-patient care are referred to England, at great distance from their families and social networks, and at significant financial cost to the health service; that the secure anonymised information linkage databank, or SAIL, based at Swansea University, reports that systems in Wales are not able to provide accurate information about the number of deaf people or the number of deaf people with mental health problems, and that the NHS Wales Informatics Services support this view; that new patient forms at GP surgeries often do not ask about hearing, so this information is rarely collated on health databases or central systems; that many GP surgeries do not know local arrangements for booking BSL interpreters to enable deaf people to engage in meaningful discussions at health appointments; that, as over 2,500 children in Wales are deaf, around 1,000 children in Wales are likely to be at risk of mental health problems in the future; that, currently, there are no established links between deaf child and adolescent mental health services in Wales and deaf child and adolescent mental health services in the UK, unlike between hearing CAMHS services in Wales and other hearing CAMHS services in other UK areas; that there are four main providers of interpreting services for deaf people in Wales, but arrangements for booking BSL interpreters are patchy and not always known to deaf people. Frequently, health staff are unaware of how booking systems work and do not know how to help. Online interpreting can be an alternative, but uptake in Wales remains low due to procedural and technical issues.
Based upon its findings, the report makes a series of recommendations to address these issues and therefore to improve the positive mental health of deaf people in Wales.As Dr Julia Terry states,
'a conversation needs to start with Welsh Government to develop short- and long-term solutions to improve services in Wales for Deaf people experiencing poor mental health.'
In summary, the all-Wales deaf mental health and well-being group are keen to start a dialogue with the Welsh Government about the issues raised in this report.It is essential that progress is made towards immediate and short-term solutions, as well as effective long-term provision to improve mental health pathways for deaf people in Wales.
Last February, my motion proposing that the Senedd
'notes a proposal for a Bill that would make provision to encourage the use of British Sign Language (BSL) in Wales, and improve access to education and services in BSL'
was passed here with cross-party support, no Member voting against, and Welsh Government Ministers routinely abstaining.My motion noted that my proposed Bill would
'ensure that the deaf community and people with hearing loss have a voice in the design and delivery of services to ensure they meet the needs of service users'.
Scores of deaf people and deaf-led groups across Wales contacted me in support of this, telling me that although the Welsh Government was developing a new BSL charter for Wales, my planned BSL Bill was an enormous step forward. Only one person wrote in opposition.
As I then stated,
'there is clearly an appetite for such BSL legislation across the Senedd chamber. We will continue to pursue this on behalf of the D/deaf community'.
Although I have continued to submit bids for a private Member's Bill in this Senedd accordingly and will continue to do so, I have not yet been successful. I therefore conclude by urging the Welsh Government to indicate its support for such a Bill during this Senedd term. Diolch yn fawr.

Joel James MS: I'd like to start by thanking Mark for raising such an important topic for debate and allowing me to contribute to it. As some of you know, like Mark, I have hearing difficulties, and I wanted to use this opportunity to highlight my own experiences and to impress upon the Government the importance of this issue and the need for it to be seriously tackled.
As a child, I was diagnosed with otitis media with effusion, and I hope I've pronounced that correctly, or glue ear, and, sadly, after several hospital operations to try and alleviate this, my eardrums were left weak and badly scarred. A few years ago, they ultimately collapsed, and as a result my hearing, which was always terrible, was made substantially worse and I developed severe tinnitus as well, all of which will only get worse with age.
Poor hearing doesn't just affect one's ability to hear. From my own experience, it leads to feelings of isolation and loneliness, disorientation in noisy environments, nausea in quiet environments or when someone is speaking too quietly or softly, and an overall lack of confidence in social situations, with the painful irony being that I can hear people talking, I just can't understand what they are saying. Above all, I think people will never truly understand how embarrassing it is to continually ask someone to repeat themselves, the feelings you experience when they get annoyed with this and the impact it has on you when you are just dismissed as being thick or stupid.
You can also forget about learning another language, it took me years of speech therapy just to be able to learn English, and this has made me terribly self-conscious about the way I speak. I was very lucky that I had help and support from my parents, family and friends, but I know this is not the case for a great number of people who suffer hearing loss, particularly the elderly. These are the types of barriers that deaf people face that don't allow them to live to their full potential and don't allow them to maximise their physical and mental well-being. Despite the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act becoming law in 2015, there's no recent comprehensive survey on the health and well-being of the deaf community in Wales. A detailed population-specific survey is therefore needed to assess how members of the Welsh deaf community specifically interact, as Mark said, with public and healthcare services within their respective communities and what the state of their well-being is. Thankfully, there is better public awareness of hearing loss. However, this is still a condition that limits so much of life that is available to others, and it could be made so much better if it was recognised more fully in society and by Government. Thank you, Mark, for raising this debate, and I also want to thank Jane as well for contributing to it. Thank you.

Jane Dodds AS: First of all, may I thank Mark Isherwood for tabling a debate on this topic, which is so very important, and I'm also very grateful for the opportunity to participate?

Jane Dodds AS: I have done a very small amount of work with children and their families who have hearing problems, and obviously in my work as a social worker have encountered children and young people who are deaf. As we've heard, the issue is one of figures. We're not clear how many people, children and young people across Wales actually are deaf, but around 3,200 children in Wales are deaf according to the National Deaf Children's Society in Wales, and they say, through their research, that around 60 per cent are more likely to experience mental health problems than other children.
I just want to touch very briefly on child protection issues in children and young people who are deaf. There is research to demonstrate that adverse childhood experiences, known as ACEs, are higher in children who are deaf. They are more likely to be abused for many reasons. For children who are deaf, signs of distress are often mistakenly assumed to be related to the child's impairment rather than recognised as an indication of abuse. There is a lack of awareness or agreement about what constitutes the abuse of deaf and disabled children, and this leads to ambiguity in the minds of both children and adults regarding the most appropriate course of action. Finally, the NSPCC tell us that deaf and disabled children are often invisible in terms of talking with them and consulting with them. In some cases, services were absent from their lives and for others provision was inadequate or inappropriate.
So, just to finish, in this very brief contribution, deaf children and young people in Wales and their families need additional support and help to be able to connect with their communities. There needs to be additional training and support to those working with them, particularly around their mental health, and our systems, such as our youth justice system, need to adjust their practice to ensure they meet their needs. Once again, I thank Mark for this debate. Thank you for allowing me to take part, and thank you to Joel as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The Minister for Social Justice to reply to the debate. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Can I start by thanking Mark Isherwood for tabling this debate today and for ensuring this important matter is brought forward as part of this Senedd's evident commitment to advancing equality and human rights in Wales? And can I also thank Joel James for your contribution this evening? Joel, you've given such a powerful account of your personal lived experience as a result of hearing difficulties in your life, and that's such important evidence for us, not just tonight but in your role here as a Senedd Member and in all that you contribute to in terms of debates, questions and inquiries. So, thank you for telling us about your life today. Thank you very much, Joel. Thank you to Jane as well, Jane Dodds, for what you have described and the evidence you've given as part of this debate as a result of your work particularly with children and young people.
I do want to also just acknowledge and thank Mark for raising this important debate today,because it was, as you said, 24 February last year, nearly a year ago, in the last year of the fifth Senedd, that we debated your motion for a Bill that would make a provision to encourage the use of British Sign Language in Wales and improve access to education and services in BSL, and I was pleased to respond to that debate. And, of course, last week, we've had other statements and debates.

Jane Hutt AC: Last December we marked the international day of disabled people's rights, and I made a statement then, highlighting how the COVID-19 pandemic has had a devastating impact on disabled people, which has exasperated existing inequalities. This debate goes beyond that, and before the pandemic, in terms of policy actions that we want to take together.
I will say, in terms of the pandemic, there's no doubt that deaf people have been adversely affected by the pandemic, having to face COVID-19-related restrictions that have limited everyday use of BSL, and this has been acknowledged tonight, hasn't it, Mark, in terms of not being able to use BSL for this particular debate? But I'm really glad that it's going to be used following the debate.
In terms of our disability equality forum, which I chair: meeting very frequently during the course of the pandemic; trying to respond appropriately to the matters affecting disabled people as well; and meeting with the representatives from organisations that support deaf people. Deaf people themselves, crucially, are part of that forum. Some are also members of the steering group, which you brought forward in your questions to me this afternoon, Mark, which developed the report 'Locked Out: Liberating disabled people's lives and rights in Wales beyond Covid-19', which we commissioned as part of the forum's work, and it does focus, that report, on the stark inequities that disabled people face, but also highlights the barriers that affect deaf people and the use of BSL. We've got to acknowledge, alongside the use of BSL, of course, the impact this would have in relation to lip speakers and lip readers. It's a very sobering report. I'm glad you also brought it to the attention of other Senedd Members today and in this debate.
We have the disability rights taskforce, and they will—. Obviously, this debate, I'm sure, will be important evidence to feed into that, because it's going to take forward the recommendations of the report—the taskforce—and it does contain findings and recommendations in relation to the experiences of deaf people through the course of the pandemic.
Last year we did, as a Welsh Government, commission the British Deaf Association to undertake a BSL audit report. This has been acknowledged tonight. The report's findings and recommendations, which, clearly, I'll be sharing with you, will also provide a very useful framework in terms of responding as well to the 'Locked out' report, the specific support we need for deaf people, which we can build into the work programme of the disability rights taskforce. I've mentioned it's had its inaugural meeting. It's made up of people and organisations with lived experience, expertise and capacity to leave a long-lasting change from across Wales.
We would look to translate research reports into practical and sustainable actions, improving outcomes, changing things for the better for disabled and deaf people across Wales. Of course, this is all based and underpinned by the social model of disability, recognising that society's values, behaviours, structures, social and economic policies and built environments—they disable people, and the 'Locked out' report has laid this work bare in terms of the need to ensure long-term change.
BSL is an essential means of communication with deaf people that enables effective social inclusion and access to services. In 2004 the Welsh Government formally recognised BSL as a language in its own right. We recognise the importance of accessible communications. We're the first Government in the UK to ensure our COVID-19 press conferences include the presence of a BSL interpreter.
The accessible communications group was also established to overcome barriers and improve access to information, and that's been invaluable. We need much more to be done to co-ordinate an approach to promotion of support for BSL. We're committed to doing this, we're committed to the development of a BSL charter, and once the audit process is finalised, we anticipate signing up to the British Deaf Association's BSL charter. This would allow us to lead by example, and hopefully the Commission can come alongside Welsh Government in terms of signing up to this.
I want to just also say that we do recognise the mental health delivery, the all-Wales deaf mental health and well-being group, and recognise the report that Mark Isherwood has highlighted tonight, entitled 'Deaf People Wales: Hidden Inequality'. I have asked officials to consider the findings as part of the work towards the implementation of 'Together for Mental Health', and the framework of action for Wales, the integrated framework of care and support for people who are deaf or living with hearing loss. We have to mainstream this clearly into health and social care, and not just health and social care but across Welsh Government in terms of access to housing, transport, education—across the board.
There is a lot more that I could say tonight in terms of how we're moving this forward, but I would say the framework of action for 2017-20, the integrated framework of care and support for people who are deaf or living with hearing loss, has been extended to 2023. This is going to steer—not just guide but steer—the outcomes of provision in terms of care and support across Wales. And we work closely, particularly with health boards, to ensure communication of information on health needs for people with a sensory loss are being met in line with the Equality Act 2010, as set out in the all-Wales standards.
So, can I just finally say we're committed as a Welsh Government to the advancement and strengthening of equality and human rights for people in Wales? I welcome the opportunity to debate today the inequalities faced by deaf people. We've heard what is under way to address these and how we can build on what's working, what more needs to be done to remove barriers that society puts in place, and we're also pleased that there's evidently a strong commitment here cross-party to tackle disability discrimination. As there is with all inequalities, it takes collective commitment and the energy of all leaders and communities across Wales to ensure sustained improvements and better outcomes for all the citizens of Wales. Diolch yn fawr i chi i gyd. Thank you to you all.

Yes indeed, thank you to all of you who contributed to that important debate. With that, we'll close proceedings for today.

The meeting ended at 18:03.

QNR

Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution

Janet Finch-Saunders: What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government on reviewing the executive marine planning powers granted to Welsh Ministers out to 200 nautical miles?

Mick Antoniw: The Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 establishes the Welsh Ministers as the marine plan authority for the Welsh inshore and offshore regions and enables them to prepare a marine plan. The Welsh Government has not identified a need to review the powers to date.

Carolyn Thomas: What advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government on the legal status of the Barnett formula in respect of the funding of railway infrastructure in Wales?

Mick Antoniw: The UK Government deems HS2 to be an England-and-Wales project and therefore it does not attract consequential funding for Wales by virtue of the Barnett formula. The Welsh Government’s position is that HS2 provides no overall benefit to Wales and it should therefore attract Barnett formula consequential funding.

Questions to the Minister for Social Justice

Sam Rowlands: What action is the Welsh Government taking to promote community safety in North Wales?

Jane Hutt: The Welsh Government is committed to keeping our communities safe. We work closely with the police and other agencies responsible for community safety in north Wales.

Mark Isherwood: What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding Welsh Government action to address the accommodation needs of Gypsies and Travellers in Wales?

Jane Hutt: Under legislation made by the Welsh Ministers, it is a requirement that local authorities assess and meet the accommodation needs of Gypsies and Travellers. To support this work, we invested £3.5 million in Gypsy and Traveller sites across Wales in 2021-22.

Jane Dodds: What support has the Welsh Government made available to asylum-seeking and trafficked children and young people living in Wales?

Jane Hutt: This government is proud to support children and young people seeking sanctuary. I am pleased to say we have provided £1.5 million in support to local authorities to develop their services. We have also published guidance for local authorities to support trafficked children and facilitate the independent child trafficking guardian service.